| ▲ | rogerkirkness 4 days ago |
| My Michael Burry senses are 'go to cash and don't come back' at this point. |
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| ▲ | eqmvii 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Many people (including Michael Burry) have had this feeling over and over since 2008, and were basically always wrong! Markets are tricky beasts to predict. |
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| ▲ | derf_ 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | To plagiarize Howard Marks, when you try to time the market, you have to be right twice: both on when to get out and when to get back in. Even being right once is incredibly hard. Or, to quote Peter Lynch: "Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections or trying to anticipate corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." | |
| ▲ | stogot 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ya I listen to this space a lot. 2015, 2016, 2018 and 2020 were a blur of “I’m cashing out and moving my 401k to money market” on several podcasts because of impending doom | | |
| ▲ | JKCalhoun 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It sucks because eventually they're right (and the rest of us were still laughing at the earlier podcasts). | | |
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| ▲ | lesuorac 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I always wonder if they somewhat right. Using the chart from the article we have large spikes in margin debt at a bunch of years that initially were followed by a crash but now are possibly followed by money printing preventing the crash. So although Burry has the right idea the rules/market has changed and his analysis no longer holds. That said, I think 2025 is too early for the AI bubble to pop. Even Burry was buying CDS in 2005 [1] so if you're seeing something your convinced is a crack right now it's going to take a few years to actually fracture. - 2000 -- Followed by a crash - 2007 -- Followed by a crash - 2011 -- (ish) USG added a bunch of money into the system - 2015 -- Counter example? - 2018 -- Counter example? - 2021 -- Large crash, USG added a bunch of money into the system - 2025q1 -- Tariff crash - 2025q3 -- Too early to tell [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scion_Asset_Management | |
| ▲ | baxtr 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The problem is Tina! There Is No Alternative - Gold? Dead asset - Cash? Good luck with inflation - Bitcoin? My ass… So what else can you do as a rational investor than to invest most of your cash into an S&P500 or World fund? | | |
| ▲ | FuriouslyAdrift 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Instead of cash, I hold treasuries. The rest is spread out among low holding cost index funds (watch out for fees... they will kill your profits) and use dividend re-investment. Split things between tax advantaged and non tax advantaged depending on your short and long term goals (ask a certified financial advisor with fiduciary duty for strategies that work for you. It's worth the small fee) Every time the market takes a crap, I buy. I rarely sell. Keep enough cash or near cash assets in a no penalty account(s) to cover unexpected costs so aren't forced to sell. A luxurious set up for sure (which took about a decade to get set up) but it's repeatable and fairly stable. Now, if you have real wealth (like $10s of millions of liquid assets) then look to setting up a MFO or SFO and focus on tax efficiency, etc. That's a whole different set of strategies. | | |
| ▲ | baxtr 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Interesting. So US Treasury securities instead of cash right? And then every time there is a dip, sell the treasuries and buy ETFs? | | |
| ▲ | FuriouslyAdrift 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure. Dollar cost averaging across a broad spectrum works well for a (very) conservative investor. I try never to have more than 10% of my liquid assets in speculative deals (straight up gambling stuff... individual stock picks, day trading, options, etc). The rest I try to keep as long term investing and/or cash or near cash. |
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| ▲ | bad_haircut72 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Give it to entrepeneurs/researchers doing intrinsicly cool things like cancer research, without knowing how you will get any of it back right at the start. The problem is NOT lack of productive investments, its that Uber rich people think its not fair if they ever lose. | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Military manufacturers are a reasonably safe haven these days as Europe is desperately trying to re-arm itself following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Middle East is in flames once again and there's a ton of uncertainty and small scale hostilities around China/India/Pakistan. Urban residential real estate is also a safe haven assuming you still are allowed to invest there. Demand is not going to shrink any time soon (as most Western governments are running rural areas to the ground for them being too expensive to bring on modern standards and expectations in infrastructure), and supply is so scarce that even large developments and re-zoning will hardly make a dent in demand. | |
| ▲ | twic 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Invest in a fund which underweights bubble stocks by tracking a suitable alternative index: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Alternative_indices Dividend weighted indexes are the classic option, and fundamental weighted index are a newer one. | |
| ▲ | tim333 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe unfashionable equities? Utility stocks, Japan/S Korea, BRKB etc? | |
| ▲ | mhh__ 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Golds been rallying really aggressively recently | | |
| ▲ | JKCalhoun 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | So, too late now, you're saying. I read overvalued, soon to crash… Perhaps we should be buying up Yuan… | | |
| ▲ | Fade_Dance 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Chinese equities have actually been great performers recently (off of a base of ultra-pessimism), but that's mostly the onshore market, not the ADR paper you can buy in the west. Buying the yuan on the other hand is directly taking a stance against CCP state controlled currency policy. A less advisable and knowable bet. | | |
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| ▲ | baxtr 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes I know, same with Bitcoin. I mean it’s a dead asset class since it doesn’t fund any economic activity. It’s just a store of wealth |
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| ▲ | JKCalhoun 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, frankly I think there is no truly safe place for investments at this point. We might as well just enjoy the ride knowing at least when it hits the bottom, we'll all of us be in the same tough spot. | | |
| ▲ | dev-ns8 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Well isn't that the whole point? At a fundamental level, investment profits are a payment for the risk you take. No risk equals no profit. There are "safe" investments currently. You can get paid 4% a year roughly to hold treasuries right now. Considered a "risk free" investment (Which sure, maybe the merits can be argued). But at the end of the day the only way to profit from an investment is taking some risk. It all comes down to pricing that risk. |
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| ▲ | FollowingTheDao 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Gold? Dead asset What? Gold is at a record high, and with inflation it will only go higher. https://www.macrotrends.net/1333/historical-gold-prices-100-... | | |
| ▲ | throw0101a 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > https://www.macrotrends.net/1333/historical-gold-prices-100-... In nominal terms perhaps, but in inflation adjust terms it's roughly what it hit in 1980: * https://www.investopedia.com/gold-price-history-highs-and-lo... https://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/11/07/CMD_GLDNFLT0711_VF... And there have been long (10y) stretches where it's remained flat: it takes a lot of patience to HODL through something like that. Even if equities (e.g., holding an index fund) are flat at least you get some yield. With a pure commodity play like gold (or BTC) your only way of returns in price appreciation. | | |
| ▲ | FollowingTheDao 4 days ago | parent [-] | | And what was happening in the 80s? Inflation. And what’s happening now? | | |
| ▲ | throw0101a 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > And what was happening in the 80s? Inflation. Gold was high in 1980 specifically and dropped after 1980 even when inflation was still high. Gold also had a peak in 2012: was there inflation then? > And what’s happening now? Nothing. Inflation peaked in February 2023 and has been dropping ever since: * https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CORESTICKM159SFRBATL Gold didn't start going up until September 2023 and has been rising. Gold and inflation are currently inversely related. |
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| ▲ | baxtr 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Dead in the sense that it is not useful for society. | | |
| ▲ | FollowingTheDao 4 days ago | parent [-] | | How is it not useful for society if it’s worth $3300 an ounce? It’s a metal prized physical properties and it’s also used in industry. | | |
| ▲ | baxtr 4 days ago | parent [-] | | My favorite LLM tells me that roughly 85% of the world’s gold is simply “lying around” in the sense of being held as jewelry, bars, coins, or reserves. In contrast, only about 15% of the gold is actively utilized in production or technological applications. So I'd say it's the same as having cash under your pillow. | | |
| ▲ | FollowingTheDao 3 days ago | parent [-] | | If it’s the same thing as cash under your pillow, and it’s useless, then give me all the cash under your pillow. | | |
| ▲ | baxtr 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, exactly. That’s the idea! I give my cash to you, and, as exchange, I will own a (usually small) share of your company. Then you’ll hopefully be successful and my shares will raise. Good for you. Good for me. Good for society since you created jobs. |
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| ▲ | FollowingTheDao 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is not that the markets are tricky. Predicting what the Fed will do with interest rates is tricky. By lowering rates they feed more money into the market. Take a look at the last 15 years and you will realize the only thing that gave us a minor recession was COVID, adn that was becasue intrest rates were zero. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS But they can't do this for much longer, inflation is the first sign, which is why Trump is raising tariffs. You can see Bond prices going up. Trumps tarrifs are aimed and lowering T Bill rates: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DGS10 | | |
| ▲ | throw0101a 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > But they can't do this for much longer, inflation is the first sign, which is why Trump is raising tariffs. Trump is raising tariffs because he thinks they are a good idea and has since the 1980s: > “The fact is, you don’t have free trade. We think of it as free trade, but you right now don’t have free trade,” Trump said in a 1987 episode of Larry King Live that’s excerpted in Trump’s Trade War. “A lot of people are tired of watching the other countries ripping off the United States. This is a great country.” * https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/trumps-tariff-str... Trump's mindset is a 1980s NYC real estate guy (zero-sum, one-off games), which when applied to global trade, is basically mercantilist: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism Meanwhile, in the real world, commerce is often non-zero-sum (both parties get something of value, i.e., "win-win"), and you play multiple rounds with each trading partner and reputation matters (rather than one-off, where burning your bridges could be an actual strategy). | | |
| ▲ | FollowingTheDao 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Trump was talking about free trade in the 80s, not in increasing tarrifs, which is not free trade. In fact, it’s the complete opposite. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Trump is saying that nobody is doing free trade except America, and so we should stop being free. He’s had a tariff fixation for decades. |
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| ▲ | AnimalMuppet 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > which is why Trump is raising tariffs. I question this bit. (That may be why he's raising tariffs; I question whether it will work.) When tariffs go up, prices go up (delusions that "other countries will pay" notwithstanding). That shows up in inflation statistics, which in turn will (probably) show up in T Bill rates, but as a higher rate, not a lower one. Except... tariffs might be a one-off increase. They may not compound the way "regular" inflation does. So maybe it will work in the medium term? | | |
| ▲ | dev-ns8 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Who knows if this is the reason that Trump is putting in place this trade war and increasing tariffs, but this paper is a very interesting perspective on why someone in the position the US is in, in regards to the global economy is extremely thought provoking [1]. Seeing as how Trump appointed the author into his political circle though could be evidence this is the ultimate goal. The paper is quite lengthy, however, in the beginning Stephen explains this idea of the Triffin Dilemma. A country that acts as the worlds reserve currency and thus creates enormous demand for their currency for things outside of goods are at a disadvantage that exasperate their trade deficit. This is implicit for a countries currency where most global trade is settled in their dollars, not to mention the benefits of holding the world reserve currency as a value store or investment. I've wondered since the tarifs were announced how much impact they can actually have, but besides that point what is a reserve currency country to do? Give up their reserve currency status? There are significant downsides to that as well... [1] https://www.hudsonbaycapital.com/documents/FG/hudsonbay/rese... | |
| ▲ | FollowingTheDao 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Oh, I don’t think it’s going to work at all. For some reason, he doesn’t think it’s gonna raise inflation enough to matter. |
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| ▲ | westpfelia 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The market can be irrational longer then you can be solvent. | | |
| ▲ | jstummbillig 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure, if you bet against the crowd with leverage or a tight funding leash. Global equity index ETF have reliably yielded 5% returns over 12-15 year periods for ~75 years. |
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| ▲ | throw0101a 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > My Michael Burry senses are 'go to cash and don't come back' at this point. And when do you get back in? Sitting in cash, waiting for the dip, is a losing strategy (even if you knew when the dip will occur, which you don't): * https://ofdollarsanddata.com/even-god-couldnt-beat-dollar-co... Simply put in a little from every pay cheque. If you think things are too wild, invest in an ("all-in-one") asset allocation fund that is not 100% stocks (e.g., fixed 80/20, 60/40): * https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/mutual-fun... * https://www.ishares.com/us/products/239729/ishares-aggressiv... * https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/mutual-fun... * https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/investments/vanguard-life... * https://www.vanguard.ca/en/product/etf/asset-allocation/9579... * https://www.blackrock.com/ca/investors/en/products/239447/is... or a target date fund (which increases bonds as you approach your retirement date). |
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| ▲ | rogerkirkness 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I am all in cash outside of startup shares. I think it makes sense to be in the market, but compared to 2008, there is way more government fiscal issues, way more concentration of profit growth (e.g. only the top 10 companies have had profit growth in the last 3 years). Way more risk is in the system. | | |
| ▲ | throw0101a 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > I am all in cash outside of startup shares. Completely (retirement and 'regular' brokerage)? What criteria (if any) will you use to get out of cash and start buying again? |
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| ▲ | dheera 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Michael Burry is selection bias. Everyone who predicted a massive crash when a crash didn't happen did not become famous. |
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| ▲ | y-curious 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, and it's the worst dealing with these people. My dad is like this, he's heavily in bonds because "a recession is coming" for the last 5 years. When it does happen, he will be "right" even though the opportunity cost for holding this belief is huge. | | |
| ▲ | ncr100 4 days ago | parent [-] | | There are a number of "Chief Analysts" who are saying "A Correction is Coming" in ~2-3 years. Soooo, yes there will always be future recessions, annnnd "professional experts" are saying it's coming sooner rather than later based upon the amount of over-inflated investments in less-well-run companies as they chase the profitability of the more-well-run companies. |
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| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | hughw 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But according to the chart there could be 500 or more S&P points before the top. you're leaving money on the table! |
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| ▲ | bluGill 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The question is how deep will the crash be. If the S&P goes up those 500 points and then crashes by 300 you are better off staying in. OTOH, if the S&P goes up those 500 points and then crashes by 5000 (I didn't bother looking up the value, so I don't know if that is possible) you are not out much by getting out today. |
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| ▲ | FrustratedMonky 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Or the old adage "If your grandma is asking how to setup a margin account, you've already missed the bubble, get out". |
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| ▲ | pavlov 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Grandma wants AI stocks, taxi drivers rave about crypto, and Warren Buffett has been selling more than ever. But “this time it’s different” because… AGI…? | | |
| ▲ | ksherlock 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The Federal Reserve will lower interest rates to keep that big, beautiful bubble. Donald Trump thinks interests should be 1%. There are 2 FRB governors (jockeying for a new chair) that have publicly called for lower interest rates. One FRB member (Adriana Kugler) unexpectedly resigned a couple weeks ago and will be replaced by the WH economist. Just yesterday, the guy who was found liable in court for financial fraud demanded an FRB (Lisa Cook) resign after being accused of mortgage fraud. Do you suppose somebody in the WH is digging up dirt? And of course, weekly rants, accusations of fraud, and musings of firing JPo. |
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| ▲ | infecto 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What in particular about margin makes you want to go into cash? |
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| ▲ | JKCalhoun 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Thank god there is no inflation or, you know, your cash would start to wither as well. Perhaps investments in undeveloped real estate.... |
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| ▲ | Fade_Dance 4 days ago | parent [-] | | A risk free rate of 4% really isn't that bad for cash (which is why there are trillions sitting in money market funds right now). If you have Tbills with a bit of duration you're also long economic weakness due to having locked in yields, which offsets the inflation spike risk to some degree (or more than compensates for it from another perspective). | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > you're also long economic weakness due to having locked in yield You’re more precisely short rates. |
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| ▲ | BenoitEssiambre 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Though maybe avoid USD or USD bonds while the gov is trying to get rid of Fed independence. |
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| ▲ | Ekaros 4 days ago | parent [-] | | At this point I have no idea what would be proper hedge bet... Certainly not crypto. Maybe gold is least insane, but I somewhat doubt even that. | | |
| ▲ | lm28469 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | What if we just stopped being so greedy and just bought/invested in what we actually need instead of playing silly games ? Find a plot of land, build a house, &c. a safe space for your kids and their kids. I know people stressing 24/7 about their money, diversifying their crypto shitcoins into pokemon card collections, buying watches or old apple computers in the hope they'll be able to sell them for more to the next sucker, buying and selling defense company stocks secretly hoping more poor souls will get annihilated in Ukraine or Gaza because it's good for their $$$. They're loaded like never before but I've never seen them so tired and miserable, I bet they don't even know why they want more money, hairless apes seem to like when numbers are getting bigger And on top of that if shit truly hits the fan the vast majority of these will be completely useless. | | |
| ▲ | immibis 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | But I can't even afford 1 single house unless I buy it on margin (and my bank won't give me margin). The minimum quantity is too high. It's like the problem with options trading but worse. (A single options contract can be worth $X,XXX to $XX,XXX and the ones on the lower end of that range are the ones most likely to expire worthless) | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Find a plot of land, build a house So we’re back to 2007 now. | |
| ▲ | roboror 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because unless you are very lucky you simply will not be able to retire, or at worst just run out of money with no healthcare or shelter. If everyone you know stressing about money would actually be fine if they stopped stressing they are all very privileged. That's not reality for most people. This is not a silly game, and it's frankly ridiculous for your advice to be "find plot of land, build a house." | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > That's not reality for most people Most people shouldn’t be managing their investments. The difference in return even if correct on smaller sums is often less than one’s labour is worth. If, on the other hand, it’s material to you whether your portfolio goes up or down by single digits, real estate is and should be part of that mix. | |
| ▲ | lm28469 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Dude we're talking about getting safe from an "ai" bubble pop by diversifying in gold and cryptos. If any of these words make sense to you, you obviously already are privileged. I'm just sharing my experience, I know a bunch of relatively poor people (household with 2 min wage) who have kids and are paying their mortgage. I also know a shit ton of tech workers making $$$ who spend more than the combined income of the former households on pokemon cards and crypto coins every single month > If everyone you know stressing about money would actually be fine if they stopped stressing they are all very privileged. Well yes, that's my point, stop buying bullshit and start building a future, it's way less stressful to spend all of your money on a plan rather than spending it on future hypothetical gains that might or might not materialise depending on variables you don't even know about. |
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| ▲ | Fade_Dance 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are many options to hedge the known market risks today (as for hedging black swans, tail hedging is also an option, although more explicitly negative value adding long-term). I'm assuming you are talking longer term. A permanent allocation to gold is one option. These days it can also be done via overlays so that equity exposure can stay the same. TIPS work as inflation protection. Move some bond exposure to TIPS. CTA/trend following is a great addition to a portfolio when it comes to protecting against stagflationary scenarios. Again, this is fairly easy to access via ETFs these days. How about international diversification? This is something even super conservative voices like Bogle would recommend. Again, easy to access via ETFs. Another good idea if hedging is on the mind is stepping away from the market cap weighted indexes to some degree. Add some small-cap value for example. There are other options as well that can be done on a portfolio level, but it can get more advanced from there. The most important thing is to have a consistent framework that one can stick with for decades. Especially when it comes to having a truly diversified portfolio, it tends to be that unfortunately some people have a hard time handling it. If you are truly diversified you should always have assets in a portfolio that are performing poorly, and performance may be bad for entire decade-long market cycle or two. Ex: if trend is performing badly during a strong equity boom, it was protecting against lines that didn't happen to play out, but that doesn't mean that the realized situation nullifies the holistic diversification benefits. Also, it gets more difficult if part of the equation is matching or exceeding S&P returns on an absolute basis. S&P has high returns but sees high drawdowns up to 50%, well more diversified approaches maybe less volatile and see more mild drawdowns. Because of that, usually most people would be better off with some mild leverage if they take a more diversified approach that switches out equity for less volatile assets like gold. Ex: 60/30/20/20/10 (equity/bonds/CTA/Gold/TIPS). | |
| ▲ | JKCalhoun 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Chinese Yuan. Have a better idea? | | |
| ▲ | Fade_Dance 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Yuan is a pegged currency. This is a widowmaker trade even for a hedge fund. The average investor would be far, far better off taking actual positions in Chinese stocks rather than getting into the global macro hedge fund style position on pegged currency unwinds (where metrics such as carry and convexity dominate the trade considerations, not the actual binary directional view). And it's also worth noting that there has been strong divergence between the ADR Chinese market and the onshore Chinese market that westerners don't generally have access to, so tread lightly there as well because there is no guarantee the ADR paper trades as it "should". | | |
| ▲ | JKCalhoun 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I should look for an ETF or index fund tied to Chinese state-owned markets (banks and airlines for example). | | |
| ▲ | Fade_Dance 4 days ago | parent [-] | | That often comes with restrictions and risks. For example, I was invested in China Mobile, but it was delisted from western exchanges after an executive order from the US added it to a blacklist due to Chinese military connections (which Chinese SOEs tend to have...) I also wouldn't recommend investing in Chinese banks in particular without understanding their credit landscape and the regional/central balance of power related topics. Know what you own and all that. I often have China positions on in the portfolios I manage, but imo it's mandatory to keep track of the communist party meetings and statements and such. It's not a free market, so investing decisions are anchored off of the chinese communist party political machinations to a large degree. When China decides on a new initiative like reigning in the tech space and making an example of the tech magnates (which literally erased some hot public growth sectors to near zero overnight), or engineering the controlled explosion of the housing bubble, you can't be ignorant of the active narratives. Especially difficult is that non-Chinese language news and analysis is often radically off the mark from intra-Chinese messaging. If you want a fire and forget it approach, this may be one of the few examples of a market where conservative active management with a focus on giving Chinese exposure to western participants may be prudent, as they can sidestep the long and esoteric list of known risks. But even then it's tough if one is in a jurisdiction exposed to, say, US blacklists which can wipe out an investment overnight and wreak havoc in a portfolio. |
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| ▲ | wina 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | gold is overvalued too! |
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