| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 8 days ago |
| “If this is the case, then two possibilities follow: first that its intentions are entirely benign and second they are malign.” There is a third: undecided. “At the heart of this, is a question any self-respecting scientist will have had to address at some point in their career: ‘is an outlier of a sample a consequence of expected random fluctuation, or is there ultimately a sound reason for its observed discrepancy?’ A sensible answer to this hinges largely on the size of the sample in question, and it should be noted that for interstellar objects we have a sample size of only 3, therefore rendering an attempt to draw inferences from what is observed rather problematic.” Not only the heart of the question, but of the paper. Still fun, though! |
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| ▲ | jandrese 8 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| If it's malign there's really nothing we can do about it. A technology that can traverse the distance between solar systems is so far outside of our technology that it might as well be magic, and our current level of technology is already adequate to obliterate all life on the surface of the Earth. If you have power to travel interstellar distances the power to obliterate all life on a planet with no warning is trivial. Ironically we might be in less trouble if they have FTL technology, since that might not require quite the outrageous level of technology you would need to do the journey with the physics that we know. The rocket equation is a harsh mistress. |
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| ▲ | krapp 8 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't believe FTL travel is possible, but if it were, the Fermi Paradox would seem to suggest it isn't obvious or trivial. It might require burning the mass energy of an entire star just to open a wormhole or hacking the matrix and forking the physics engine or sacrificing us to their chaos god patrons or something. I think I'd rather deal with the aliens who just have really good rockets. At least we could potentially comprehend the rulebook they play by. Who even knows what the hell the Walkers of Sigma 957 are about? | | |
| ▲ | BizarroLand 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Another theoretical possibility is that any Alien life that is exploring the universe could be more resistant to acceleration / deceleration than we squishy humans are. Perhaps they figured out AI or have made space-adapted biological life forms that can survive constant acceleration at 25Gs and are sending them out to scout the universe for other life, and once they find it they would signal back to the home planet. 25G of constant acceleration would kill any human, especially if it were maintained for the time it would take to approach light speed, but for an AI or a creature specifically developed to survive that it would make a trip to the Solar System from Alpha Centauri take 5-8 years. Then again, if they could do 1G of constant acceleration that would only add like 2 years to the total trip. Long enough to be one-way for most people but short enough to be survivable under ideal circumstances. Assuming they stopped outside of Neptune's or Pluto's orbit they would still have a few years of travel to make it to Earth but they would have started detecting our broadcasts long before arriving. I'm not saying this happened, rather that it becomes plausible when you take some liberties with the starting conditions. | | |
| ▲ | nobody9999 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >25G of constant acceleration would kill any human, especially if it were maintained for the time it would take to approach light speed >Then again, if they could do 1G of constant acceleration that would only add like 2 years to the total trip. Long enough to be one-way for most people but short enough to be survivable under ideal circumstances. It would take ~2 weeks to to approach light speed while continuously accelerating at 25G. It would only take ~1 year to do so at 1G continuous acceleration. On cosmic time and distance scales, those are essentially the same, especially since once we approach the speed of light, there's no going faster. As such, tolerance for G forces seems pretty irrelevant for interstellar travel. Doing so within the confines of a solar system is another matter altogether, I'd expect. | | |
| ▲ | BizarroLand 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Humans die under 10g for more than a few minutes. Admittedly, we could position the humans to be in the optimal direction, but even 2g sustained for months would undoubtedly cause issues. I picked 25G as it would be an insane but reasonable acceleration, and time is always a factor. Trimming 2 years off of a voyage might seem worthless on an intergalactic scale, since once you are more than a few solar systems away you're on the scale of AI scouts and generation ships, but for a close star like Alpha Centauri, 2 years (each way) might be the difference between a one way death march and the possibility of a heroic return home. | | |
| ▲ | zeven7 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Grandfather paradox says the riders on the ship won’t experience most of the time of the ride | | |
| ▲ | nobody9999 3 days ago | parent [-] | | >Grandfather paradox says the riders on the ship won’t experience most of the time of the ride No. The Grandfather Paradox[0] says nothing of the kind: The consistency paradox, commonly known as the grandfather paradox, occurs
when the past is changed in any way.[5] The paradox of changing the past
stems from modal logic: if it is necessarily true that the past happened in a
certain way, then it is false and impossible for the past to have occurred in
any other way, so any change to the past would be a paradox.[13] Consistency
paradoxes occur whenever any change to the past is possible.[6]
A common example given is a time traveler killing their grandfather before
their parents' conception, thus preventing the conception of themselves. If
the traveler were not born, they could not kill their grandfather; therefore,
the grandfather proceeds to beget the traveler's ancestor who begets the
traveler. This scenario is self-contradictory.[5] One proposed resolution for
this paradox is that a time traveller can do anything that did happen, but
cannot do anything that did not happen.[5] Another proposed resolution is
simply that time travel is impossible.[14]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_paradox | | |
| ▲ | zeven7 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Sorry I spoke quickly. I meant the twin paradox and reached for the wrong label |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Humans die under 10g for more than a few minutes With no air? | | |
| ▲ | BizarroLand 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not about the air. Its about our fundamental squishyness. At 10g, a 150lb man would weigh 1,500 lbs. His heart isn't strong enough to move blood that suddenly weighs 90lbs/gallon that also has to push other blood that also weighs that same amount. His blood vessels, paper thin and easily torn under normal weight, suddenly have 10 times the amount of pressure to resist. He's fine for a few moments, jet pilots experience short bursts of 10g during flights quite often, occasionally more. Might pass out after 10-20 seconds, but after 10 minutes, his brain, starved of oxygen and squished under its own weight, ceases to function. His heart or his blood vessels rip and tear from the strain, and his body falls apart inside of its own skin. It's not pretty, but it would probably be a fairly painless way to go. Getting back to your question, his ability to breathe is not relevant under those situations. The absence of oxygen would accelerate his demise no more than it would under any other situation. |
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| ▲ | jandrese 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | A fun exercise is to calculate how much mass in rocket fuel you would need to accelerate at 25G for two weeks. Or even to accelerate at 1G for a year. Even if you assume a ridiculously high ISP like 1 million seconds (our current best engines are around 8,000 ISP, and they're severely limited in thrust) and close to unlimited energy to add to the mass. Like you're using antimatter to kick propellant out the back at relativistic velocities. Now add in the mass to slow down once you begin to approach your destination. | | |
| ▲ | BizarroLand 6 days ago | parent [-] | | I know I am not taking relativity into account but outside of that it's something like 250 kilograms (~550lbs) of antimatter (and that value again for the matter for it to react to) or the equivalent in other fuels. The only difference is how quickly you burn through it. Which doesn't sound like a lot but its probably as much or more antimatter than exists in the entire solar system, so if it were the fuel then whoever was using it would need to have figured out a method to create and store antimatter in bulk along with the ability to react antimatter as rocket fuel without destroying the rocket its fueling. |
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| ▲ | Rooki 8 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | IMO, If FTL was possible, something, somewhere, at some point in time would have engineered a self replicating organism capable of it. These things would be everywhere by now we would see evidence of them. | | |
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| ▲ | 827a 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Also, FTL technology existing would naturally abate the prospects of interstellar war under the Dark Forest theory, because it means FTL communication is possible; and factions that can communicate with each other quickly are far less likely to fight each other. This was, at least in the first book, a (iirc stated) reason why the Dark Forest theory exists. Of note: It might not require the outrageous levels of technology you might expect to accelerate technology to the delta-v 3I/ATLAS is traveling at, simply because there are absolutely star systems near ours already traveling at a pretty large sun-relative delta-v. We get a ton of galaxy-relative velocity for free from our solar system; we just have to shoot the probe at slower solar systems. Putting (and surviving) biological life in there, however, is a different matter. | | |
| ▲ | jandrese 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It would still require a stupendous amount of delta-v to slow down enough to be captured by the gravity well of the place you are trying to land though. Also, the Dark Forest theory is based on the same game theory principles that said the US needed to nuke the USSR flat by the early 1950s, it should not be used without skepticism. | |
| ▲ | krapp 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't know. We humans can communicate with one another quickly but war still exists, it just uses modern communications platforms for espionage, propaganda, attacking information infrastructure and controlling drone swarms. | | |
| ▲ | Timwi 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I have a theory that what we need to reduce conflict in the future is not more speed of communication but more fidelity. At present we can only communicate in spoken or written human language, and this language is not just imprecise and ambiguous, but also untrustworthy (easy to lie with). If you imagine for just a second a future technology that can transmit genuine opinion, intention and feeling in a way that is hard to fake and therefore easy to trust, it should be easy to see how wars could be averted. So any technology that's even a small step in that direction would probably help. |
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| ▲ | actionfromafar 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Spoiler alert! Edit: the book is "The Road not Taken" There's a scifi story about a civilization stumbling upon how to achieve FTL travel. In the story, the tech is at the same time very simple and very unexpected. Anyways, they go explore the galaxy and invade and conquer with their primitive ships, which are little more than tin buckets. Their weapons technology is on the flintlock gun level. (A tragic kind of) hilarity ensues when they stumble upon Earth with its completely unexpected, incredibly advanced weaponry. IIRC in the story most civilizations find FTL travel pretty early. Just Earth didn't happen upon it and instead had time to develop advanced weaponry, computers, etc. | | | |
| ▲ | m4rtink 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Interestingly enough, the same world ending technology can be used for interstellar travel & could have been used since the 1950s! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propu... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_ark Arguably if you launched the project Orion interstellar ark from the ground you could have pulled the world ending at the same time as well, perfect tripple combo. ;-) | | |
| ▲ | nkrisc 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket and then killing the hen as well. |
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| ▲ | dmurray 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This doesn't sound true given what we know about asymmetric warfare in general. What if we discovered the object really was an artillery shell sent to destroy us, but the civilization at the other end only has the resources to fire one every ten years with an accuracy of 1% to hit the Earth? We might be like a primitive tribe facing an attacker with battleships - a technology that might as well be magic, but still one we can adapt to by abandoning the seafront village and retreating into the jungle. | | |
| ▲ | GoblinSlayer 7 days ago | parent [-] | | >We might be like a primitive tribe facing an attacker with battleships The same is true for them. For every strength there's bigger strength. | | |
| ▲ | dmurray 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Exactly. The guys with spears and bows can't defeat the battleship, but if they hide out in the jungle long enough, maybe someone else will come along to sink it. | | |
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| ▲ | sneak 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > our current level of technology is already adequate to obliterate all life on the surface of the Earth FWIW, and reinforcing your point, this is not even remotely true. Humans lack the technology now or in the foreseeable future to destroy the Earth’s biosphere, which would likely require boiling the oceans. There’s a reason we use that as an example of an impossibly large task. | | |
| ▲ | jandrese 7 days ago | parent [-] | | I purposely excluded the oceans and caves when I said that, but we've overbuilt nuclear weapons to such an absurd degree that we can render the land highly irradiated and inhospitable. |
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| ▲ | arkensaw 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The rocket equation is a harsh mistress. Nice Heinlein reference |
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| ▲ | psunavy03 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > If this is the case, then two possibilities follow: first that its intentions are entirely benign and second they are malign. And why do we assume that, if humans can have a whole spectrum of motivations from "entirely benign" to "entirely malign," that a presumably-much-more advanced civilization can't? |
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| ▲ | neuronic 8 days ago | parent [-] | | Because humans are nearly incapable of projecting in a non-linear way. As in, it takes active educated effort. Most predictions you will see are linear extrapolations of what we already know. That's why flying cars were a popular "futuristic" scenario. They can drive now, why shouldn't they be able to fly in 50 years from now? That thought was prevalent in the 60s. How should they even know that cars will become globally connected smartphones on wheels first? Smartphones didn't exist. The microchip didn't exist yet. The Internet didnt exist yet. It is impossible to make this combination from the 1960s perspective. Complex non-linear systems don't work in intuitive ways and minor changes in fundamental variables can chaotically change the system in entirely unexpected ways. Non-linear developments will always be surprising, it doesn't matter how many Youtube videos certain pop scientists are creating. | | |
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| ▲ | pavel_lishin 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And a fourth: irrelevant. If I accidentally step on a bug and squish it, it's surely not good for the bug, but I had no intentions towards it one way or another. |
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| ▲ | riffraff 8 days ago | parent [-] | | This was a (minor?) plot point in Crichton's "Sphere". Paraphrasing: if a smart bacterium steps on the battery of one of our space probes and gets destroyed by the heat, the smart bacteria community may think the aliens (we, humans) sent it to them for unfathomable reasons, perhaps to teach them a lesson, but we didn't think of them at all. | | |
| ▲ | gambiting 8 days ago | parent [-] | | Also Strugatsky's "Roadside Picnic" - the "picnic" in question was a visit of aliens on Earth for unknown reasons. They came, they went, no one has actually seen them but they left their trash on our planet, "artifacts" in zones that are cordoned off by governments of Earth - from infinite batteries to multiplying gels and various gravity fields that will rip you apart in a second.. Like you said, some people ascribe all kinds of intentions to this visit, but most likely it's an encounter with a bug for them - they just left their stuff without as much as noticing us at all. | | |
| ▲ | pavel_lishin 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Even the "trash" hypothesis is just that - one of the theories of why this stuff was left behind! | | |
| ▲ | gambiting 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Well yes, that's the beauty of it - the protagonist just makes a living hauling this stuff out of the zone(this is where Stalkers came from!), but in the novel there are various factions that believe all kinds of things - that these items are a gift from god, that they are trash, or that they are a test of some kind for us as a human race. I really do highly rate the book, it's great. |
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| ▲ | aiaikzkdbx 8 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > If this is the case, then two possibilities follow: first that its intentions are entirely benign and second they are malign Even framing this objects actions using human concepts (benign, malign) is very short sighted. It’s possible any alien life experiences complexities were fundamentally unable to comprehend (there’s some good sci fi short stories that explore this). |
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| ▲ | jerf 8 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This isn't really that important. I don't care if the probe is here because of magh'Kveh or because its creators are really motivated to zzzzssszsezesszzesz. What I care about is whether it's going to be benign (which includes just cruising through doing nothing) or malevolent to me. I don't even care if the aliens think they are doing us a favor by coming to a screeching halt, going full-bore at Earth, and converting our ecosystem into a completely different one that they think is "better" for whatever reason. However gurgurvivick that makes them feel, I'm going to classify that as a malign act and take appropriate action... because what else can I even do? And from that perspective, "benign" and "malign" aren't that hard to pick up on. They are relative to humanity, and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact it would be pathological to not care about how the intentions are relative to their effect on humanity. Whatever happens, it's not like we can actually cause an interstellar incident at this phase of our development. Anything that they would interpret as an interstellar incident they were going to anyhow (e.g. "how dare you prevent our probe from eliminating your species?") and that responsibility is on them, not us. You can't blame a toddler that can barely tie their shoelaces for international incidents, likewise for us and interstellar incidents. | | |
| ▲ | anigbrowl 8 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Whatever happens, it's not like we can actually cause an interstellar incident at this phase of our development. What if we have inadvertently caused tremendous offense via our radio/television/planetary radar signals | |
| ▲ | sebastiennight 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | One problem with your assumption here is that "humanity" has no definition of "benign" and "malign". If we did have such a thing, extrapolated coherent volition would be solved and that would solve half of the AI alignment problem. This hypothetical "alien" problem is actually pretty much equivalent to the AI alignment problem. One half is, we don't know what we want, and the other half is, even if we knew... we don't know how to make "them" do what we want. | | |
| ▲ | jerf 8 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure, and I can't figure out whether the guy who is letting me in to traffic instead of cutting me off is malign or benign, because I lack a definition of those words. Alas, I am doomed to infinite confusion forever. It's very fashionable to confuse the inability to draw bright shining lines as being unable to define a thing at all, but I don't have much respect for that attitude. Of all the outcomes, "the probe engages in indefinite behavior that we are never able to classify as 'humanly benign' or 'humanly malign'" is such a low percentage that it's something I'll worry about when it happens. The world is full of concepts we can't draw bright shining lines through. In fact the ones we can are the exceptions. We manage to have definitions even so. | | |
| ▲ | sebastiennight 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The probe comes in, observes half a dozen major armed conflict areas on our planet, and solves the problem by entirely disintegrating all weapons on one side of each conflict with no loss of life (but leaving the other side's weapons untouched). 1. Would your assessment of "malign vs benign" depend on knowing which side was disarmed for each conflict, or can you already make an assessment without that information? 2. Do you estimate that the other 8 billion humans surely agree with your response to #1? |
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| ▲ | marcus_holmes 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > One problem with your assumption here is that "humanity" has no definition of "benign" and "malign". Agreed. One can think of any number of actions that would be impossible to rate on a benign/malign scale. E.g. as a trivial example: aliens destroy 80% of humanity, which leads to restoration of Earth ecosystems and prevention of the inevitable future war that would destroy 100% of humanity; in 100 years humanity is in a much better position than it would have been if left alone [0] [1] And that doesn't even include intentions. We often do bad things for good reasons, with good intentions. Malignity includes or infers the intention to cause harm. That may not be present, or the intention may have been benign. Morality is complicated and subjective. Even judging the outcome of an action as positive or negative is complicated and subjective. [0] I don't really want to argue whether this is true, possible, etc. Pick your own variant of example where a seemingly-malign action is actually benign in the long term. [1] Also raises the problem of estimating "better" in this context. Exercise left for the reader. | | |
| ▲ | Timwi 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > Pick your own variant of example where a seemingly-malign action is actually benign in the long term. Parents like to believe that all of their seemingly-malignant actions towards their children are actually that. In reality, they only sometimes are, and it's impossible to tell in advance which ones. |
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| ▲ | alariccole 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I feel confident that we do. | |
| ▲ | cindyllm 8 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | nathan_compton 8 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > and converting our ecosystem into a completely different one that they think is "better" for whatever reason. You could theoretically be convinced that they are right and resign yourself to death. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > It’s possible any alien life experiences complexities were fundamentally unable to comprehend Possible. But I’d argue unlikely. We can’t make many assumptions about alien life, generally. We can about a technological civilisation that sends out interstellar probes. | | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 8 days ago | parent [-] | | A sufficiently advanced technology might make the construction of probes trivial, so that it has no great significance to its creators - the "Roadside picnic" situation. Our unfathomable advanced technology is their disposable object. "Why did you send us this probe?" would be like asking America to account for a discarded Coke can. "I dunno, probably somebody was thirsty? What the fuck are you asking us for?" Aliens are completely unknowable, that's the thing most fiction trips up on. We don't understand what the hell is going on with other humans. They're like us but different, their motivations sometimes are mysterious or maybe they don't have motivations at all? It's confusing, and those aren't even a different species let alone aliens. | | |
| ▲ | the-mitr 8 days ago | parent | next [-] | | along similar lines is His Master's Voice by Stanislaw Lem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Master%27s_Voice_(novel) > We will make it undecipherable for all who are not yet ready; but we must go further in our caution — so that even a false reading will not be able to supply them with any of the things that they seek but that should be denied them. | |
| ▲ | lloeki 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > "Why did you send us this probe?" "hey zarqzon! someone found the camera you accidentally dropped into that asteroid field while trying to take a selfie with that cool gas giant! damn you were so wasted that time" "what? I just bought a new one as replacement!" | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 8 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > sufficiently advanced technology might make the construction of probes trivial, so that it has no great significance to its creators The point is they bothered constructing probes. My cat isn't constructing space probes. If he up and began doing so this evening, I would be able to conclude certain things about him. > would be like asking America to account for a discarded Coke can You're saying you can't conclude anything useful about American culture and civilisation from a discarded Coke can? (As well as the act of casually discarding it.) > Aliens are completely unknowable, that's the thing most fiction trips up on Aliens, yes. Aliens who make contact with us, no. The latter is a subset that requires certain attributes and heavily implies others. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 8 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > You're saying you can't conclude anything useful about American culture and civilisation from a discarded Coke can? (As well as the act of casually discarding it.) Not the op, but I would aver that we have a good chance of concluding false things from the alien version of a discarded Coke can. Given the subject, I would point to the actor who played the lead role in "The Gods Must Be Crazy" (a story about a discarded coke glass bottle), who did not understand the money he was given for the role: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C7%83xau_ǂToma | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The point is they bothered constructing probes. Right, why did somebody make this metal cylinder covered in elaborate symbology and then place it here? Was this place of great importance to them? What were they trying to communicate to me by constructing the cylinder and placing it? It's just a discarded coke can. You are the one who decided it's required to have great significance. If you haven't read "Roadside Picnic" I suggest at least reading a summary. | |
| ▲ | asdff 8 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >You're saying you can't conclude anything useful about American culture and civilisation from a discarded Coke can? (As well as the act of casually discarding it.) Could an ant? This is the scale we may be operating on. One of the biggest fallacies with the alien question is that they'd operate on our scale. Let alone "think" as we've observed thinking on earth, but that is another story. Some science fiction has explored this concept based on gravity or metabolism leading to dramatically different scale in either space or time for a species and the implications that brings when meeting a species on a different scale. |
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| ▲ | stevenwoo 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sort of the impetus (which at least gives us a reason unlike the movie adaptation Edge of Tomorrow but is not as important as the impact) in the novella All You Need is Kill. | |
| ▲ | 827a 8 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | We don't even need good sci-fi to explore that idea. We brush against it every day with ChatGPT. |
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