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dlcarrier 4 days ago

Most farms are not owned by farmers, most housing is not owned by tenants, most airplanes are not owned by airlines, etc., etc..

Vertical integration can have benefits, but it isn't necessary and has drawbacks. Even when vertically integrated, regulations are often written under the assumption that everything is leased, not owned, so compliance is easier if you own a company that owns an asset, instead of owning that asset directly.

For example, if two people carpool in a car that one of them owns, instead of hiring a taxi, they'll usually split the costs of the fuel and the wear on the car. On the other hand, if they were flying in a small airplane owned by one of them, it's illegal to split the costs of wear on the airplane, unless its a rental or air taxi. Because of this, and other similar effects of FAA regulations, many small airplane owners own a company that owns the airplane, instead of owning it outright, and rent the airplane from themselves, whenever they use it.

CGMthrowaway 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

>Most farms are not owned by farmers, most housing is not owned by tenants, most airplanes are not owned by airlines, etc., etc..

Sounds nice but it's not true in the US. A majority (60%) of US land in farms is owner-operated.[1] US homeownership is 65% meaning most housing units are owner-occupied.[2] And 60% of North American airplanes are owner-operated not leased.[3]

[1]https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/land-use-land-v... [2]https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2025/07/2... [3]https://www.iata.org/en/iata-repository/publications/economi...

quickthrowman 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

How much of the argicultural output do the 60% of owner-operated farms produce?

I’d bet it’s less than 60%

CGMthrowaway 4 days ago | parent [-]

Probably 40-65%. What is your point?

smeeger 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

ouch

harmmonica 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Not trying to nitpick, but I guess I am. Does "most" really mean 65%? I tend to think most needs to clear a pretty high hurdle. I bring this up not to attack you, but I've noticed this behavior in journalism or when folks are trying to win arguments where instead of quoting the actual number they'll use a term like most, which I don't think has a hard and fast threshold.

I guess, for me, most would have to be something north of 80% because it just doesn't feel right to use it below that. 65% would be majority, obviously, maybe significant majority or some such.

Anyone else feel this way?

Edit: if anyone else reads this, I totally shouldn't have even brought this up. Downvote away, but as other replies have pointed out I missed the definition of "most" when you're comparing numbers against each other.

quesera 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I do not. For me, "most" is 50% + 1 (Edit: or more).

ImJamal 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think most would usually mean plurality not 50% + 1. If there are 3 people and 2 of them have $5 each and the third has $6 it would be correct to say the third has the most money despite not having 50% + 1.

Regardless, the majority is also the plurality so using most when it is over 50% would also be acceptable.

lotsofpulp 4 days ago | parent [-]

Most and majority mean more than half, in the context of proportions.

>If there are 3 people and 2 of them have $5 each and the third has $6 it would be correct to say the third has the most money despite not having 50% + 1.

This is not an applicable example, as most is not being used to refer to the proportion of money. It is using a different definition of most, which is the top rank when ranking things by quantity.

harmmonica 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is interesting. So you're saying that majority and most have the same meaning?

quesera 4 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, I think so:

Most people who voted for US President in 2020, voted for Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr.

The majority of people who voted for US President in 2020, voted for Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr.

(I'm a native speaker, but there might be some regional differences here.)

leptons 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Too bad there aren't books that describe the meaning of words, so this website will have to do...

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/most

No, "most" does not mean "80%" or any other made up number.

harmmonica 4 days ago | parent [-]

Not the friendliest way to reply, but are you saying 65% does not mean most? Just wondering if we're violently agreeing. I shouldn't have said 80%. Was just trying to articulate that most is a high threshold and also not defined as an absolute number.

CGMthrowaway 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Cambridge does not have the best definition, imo, but even going by that the first definition would mean any plurality would qualify as "most" - setting the threshold potentially lower than 50%.

I prefer Merriam Webster, which is far more clear. Definition 2 (defn 1 does not apply in this context): https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most

bbarnett 4 days ago | parent [-]

We have multiple parties in Canada.

There may be a minority government elected, with 40% of the seats, and 30%, 20%, 10% to other parties.

The 40% party will be described as winning the most seats.

harmmonica 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Ha, I gotta say after reading your reply I feel kind of dumb for even saying the 80%; I had blinders on. Most, when it's relative, is the highest of a set even if that number is super low. Totally spaced on that when I asked, but I was fixated on how it's used to define something that's a percentage like in the 65% example. It happens so frequently in journalism and it's frustrating because it's trying to make an argument that sometimes the numbers themselves don't support.

Anyway, appreciate you reminding me (and I deserved to feel dumb so also making me feel a bit dumb about it).

CGMthrowaway 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, that is definition 1 (merriam-webster). This definition is often invoked by saying "the" before "most," as you did.

It's a different definition than defn 2 (m-w), which is what is used when saying "Most farms are not owned by farmers."

"The 40% party won the most seats" carries a different meaning than "The 40% party won most seats"

Dylan16807 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's more complicated. They got "the most" seats but they didn't get "most" seats.

Pure "most" is implicitly that option versus all the rest.

leptons 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, "most" is not a high threshold. You can say "most" about 30% of something in a group, if the rest are splintered between other groups getting less than 30%.

Maybe you should read the link I provided. It would likely clear up a lot of misconceptions for you.

LastTrain 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You have a misconception about what the word means. Most has a meaning: more than any other quantity. > 50% meets that definition every time, but even 2% could mean ‘most’ if everything else in the comparison is less than 2%.

harmmonica 4 days ago | parent [-]

You're right about the 2% and I just totally had blinders on when thinking of "most" used when comparing a set of numbers (where one of those numbers is the most in the set). I disagree with your ">50% meets..." comment, but pretty sure we're not going to agree on that one so I'll just shut up now.

arbor_day 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Have you seen how expensive a tractor or combine is? The economies of scale are real in farming.

You need ~$1M worth of equipment to farm 80 acres (~$1M worth of land), but that same equipment can basically farm 800 acres (~10M worth of land). An equipment issue can destroy a years worth of work with 800 acres (e.g. frost damage from delays), but with 8000 acres you can have spares / avoid the loss with some overtime.

Fertilizer and pesticides aren't neatly contained. If you farm different crops than your neighbors, overspray can kill your yield (e.g. weeds spray for corn kills soybeans). Laws around who can grow/spray what and being big helps make that better

9rx 4 days ago | parent [-]

> You need ~$1M worth of equipment to farm 80 acres

All new? That seems way too low. You'd struggle to get into a combine alone.

Used? That seems way too high. I doubt I'd get any more than $300k for my equipment (and that's more than I paid) if I were to sell it today, and it's pretty nice equipment compared to what I see a lot of farmers using.

> 80 acres (~$1M worth of land)

We always wonder why so cheap? The 18 acres for sale down the road from me wants just about $1M (I expect that will be a hard sell, to be fair). The 130 acres further down the road wants nearly $4M (quite realistic; comparable parcels have sold for more). If you could pick up 80 acres in these parts for $1M, you just won the lottery. And, to be clear, it's not like on the edge of a city or something where other interests are driving up the price. It's just farmland. The yields are respectable, but not quite like Illinois will produce.

bluGill 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Anyone with 80 acres is buying used tractors. They are likely hiring someone else with a combine to harvest their fields (harvest needs a lot more labor than the 80 acre farm has so when you hire a combine you get a team of 3-4 people which also includes grain carts and semi trucks to get your grain from the field to the elevator (which might be something you own and might be something town).

I work for John Deere, though I don't speak for the company. All tractors are built to order, which means when someone buys a new tractor the dealer has several months to sell the trade-in. When the new tractor arrives from the factory the truck unloads the new one, and loads the trade in to take to someone else. A good dealer will have a list of farmers and what equipment they all have so they can put this deal together. As a result the only tractors a dealer has are service loaners (which are sometimes rented), which makes all the accountants happy.

9rx 4 days ago | parent [-]

> Anyone with 80 acres is buying used tractors.

You'd think, but you'd be surprised. In fact, one of the families I rent land from (aging couple who was looking to work less land) is still working around 50 of their acres themselves and they got a couple of new tractors recently.

> They are likely hiring someone else with a combine to harvest their fields

They even combine the crop themselves. But, to be fair, the combine is pretty old (IH 1420).

bluGill 4 days ago | parent [-]

The other possibility is they have had the land for a long time and it is paid for. Payments on 80 acres of land will pay for some really nice tractors. The rational economic actor will still be going for used tractors on 80 acres, but humans are not rational. Larger farms a new tractor makes sense for various reasons.

Don't forget tax deductions. There is a reason the week between Christmas and New Year is a big on for tractor sales - your accountant suggests you want to get the down payment out now and off your books. As an accountant to explain it (I don't fully understand this)

9rx 4 days ago | parent [-]

> The rational economic actor will still be going for used tractors on 80 acres

A rational economic actor would sell the land. 80 acres would fetch around $2M around here pretty easily. You're not getting $2M of pure economic value of 80 acres.

But what are you going to supplant the enjoyment of being out on the farm with? No amount of money can buy a suitable replacement.

arbor_day 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

1M was a nice round number for equipment. I see people without much land buy new equipment all the time, it’s wild! They tend to not stick around long though.

You must have better land than we do. Land by me goes for around 14K/ acre. The bigger plots or better land goes higher.

9rx 4 days ago | parent [-]

> You must have better land than we do.

It's decent enough, but hardly the best ever known. 200-220bu corn and 50-60bu soybeans would be pretty typical for good ground. Whereas, as I understand it, that is merely average ground in Illinois?

But the farmers are really hungry. Case in point: When I was a kid there were eight adjacent farms, including where I grew up, that all had farmers living on them. Of their kids (my generation), there are now 12 of us trying to farm in the same area. That's a 50% increase! As you can imagine, the competition is fierce.

4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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AnimalMuppet 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Most housing is not owned by tenants? That surprises me quite a bit. Would you supply a source for that?

usrusr 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I guess it depends a lot on what you measure in "most": housing per head or housing in square feet? Lots of heads cramped into rented minimum viable housing. Lots of square feet held by owners who occasionally live there, when they do happen to be in town.

(the general upwards trajectory of real estate makes it an investment even when it does not generate any income, do much better than owning a boat!)

ItsMonkk 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's impossible to know with the data we collect. Census tracks the homeownership rate, which tracks if the house is owned by someone living in it. However if you are a tenant living in a house that someone else owns and lives in it as well, for example if you are an adult renting in your parents house, that counts as a homeowner owned home. We do not collect the tenant non-ownership rate, but it would be much higher than the inverse of the homeownership rate.

throwmeaway222 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

tenants by definition don't own it, he was building a false argument

GLdRH 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you carpool for money, you're a taxi. And if you take a friend on your plane, and he gives you x€ afterwards for gas money, how is that illegal?

I'm sure you're right about the compliance thing in general, but I don't get your example.

isaacdl 4 days ago | parent [-]

It's actually an FAA regulation. If you are not a licensed commercial pilot, there are extremely strict rules on how and when you can accept ANY money for flying, use of an airplane, etc.

Actually, even if you are a licensed commercial pilot, there are still strict rules around payment. You can be paid for your skill as a pilot, but you cannot, e.g. charge for giving rides in your personal airplane.

hoistbypetard 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Actually, even if you are a licensed commercial pilot, there are still strict rules around payment. You can be paid for your skill as a pilot, but you cannot, e.g. charge for giving rides in your personal airplane.

While that sounds like a bad rule when I first read it, I smell Chesterton's fence here. I'd like to understand why that regulation was written before getting rid of it.

isaacdl 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's a safety measure. When it comes to regulating aviation, in general, the FAA is concerned with protecting the public. The "public" doesn't generally have the knowledge to evaluate a pilot, aircraft, or the operation of an aviation venture. So, the FAA puts rules around these things. The private pilot is held to a much lower standard of skill than a commercial or airline pilot. But, that means that the FAA doesn't trust them to fly around the general public.

You can take your friend for a spin in your plane if you want, or go screw around and kill yourself, but you cannot "hold out" your operation as an air taxi or airline to the general public, and you can't make money off of it in any situation.

A commercial pilot has to undergo much more training in operating an aircraft safely. This means the FAA allows them to get paid to be a pilot - they could be hired to fly someone around in that person's plane. But the commercial license does not really train them in running a safe airline, so the FAA does not allow them to use their own plane to run an airline.

EDIT: To word it differently, the opportunity to get paid increases the likelihood that someone will push limits or take unsafe risks. If you aren't under pressure to make your paycheck, you're less likely to take your passengers into marginal weather. (One of the most dangerous occupations in aviation is medivac/aviation EMS. There, the pressure isn't generally monetary but moral: you want to help a sick patient, so you take more risks.)

FireBeyond 4 days ago | parent [-]

> If you aren't under pressure to make your paycheck, you're less likely to take your passengers into marginal weather. (One of the most dangerous occupations in aviation is medivac/aviation EMS. There, the pressure isn't generally monetary but moral: you want to help a sick patient, so you take more risks.)

Critical care (but not flight) paramedic (though I have transferred patients hundreds of times to them):

When we request Heli EMS tht providers are given patient details, but the pilot is strictly given "pickup" and "destination" (they used to be given patient weight, and may still be depending on location and size of helo, but generally not) - the goal being "evaluate safety based on weather conditions only, not a patient condition that tugs the heart strings".

mandevil 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not totally sure what the GP meant, but I think it has to do with the owning/operating organization of the plane not being a qualified (Part 121/135) company for commercial operations.

A grandfather-in-law owned his own small business (a civil engineering firm), and had a plane that he flew to get to meetings/job sites across the Midwest. He could fly company employees just fine- and the company could reimburse him for the flight expense, and since it was not for the public that was fine. He could fly his family or friends on his own dime just fine. But if a family member or friend not working for the company tried to compensate him for the costs, then it is a question of "is his company actually an unlicensed airline?" and now we're getting into territory where it gets complicated. The FAA heavily regulates airlines, which is a major reason they are so safe. But there has to be a lower bound on what gets regulated, and avoiding that is what I think that GP is referencing.

hoistbypetard 4 days ago | parent [-]

That makes sense, at least as a partial explanation. Thanks.

dlcarrier 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's worse than that. It's due to some weakening in the checks and balances system of US federal regulations, as well as a hole in the system.

Historically, laws were written by the legislative branch (congress), enforced by the executive branch (the office of the president), and overseen by the judicial branch (federal courts). When oversight works, all three have to agree for an enforcement action to take place.

In somewhat recent history, congress has been passing regulations much less, instead passing authorizations for the executive branch to write their own regulations. On top of this, the judicial branch had, until last year, allowed executive organizations to use their own judges, without juries, and follow their own interpretation of laws and regulations, when it conflicted with a literal interpretation. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEC_v._Jarkesy and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loper_Bright_Enterprises_v._Ra... for the recent rulings overturning those precedents.

The effects of those last two cases are still working their way through the relevant bureaucracies, so until then, the FAA will keep with their current interpretation of gaining experience as a form of commercial income (https://www.faa.gov/media/15611) and having a reputation as form of advertising (https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/...).

Even then, there's a hole in the system that especially impacts overly broad definitions of commercial activity, which as far as I'm aware, no other executive organization has taken anywhere close to the extreme of the FAA.

That hole is that even with the precedent of the recent supreme court rulings, they only take effect when something goes to the courts. With real commercial activity, this happens regularly and often preemptively, because the costs and resources needed to take something to court are easily recovered by the extra income or savings of a ruling that follows proper checks and balances.

On the other hand, there is no incentive to spend the money and resources needed to regain rights for non-commercial activities, like carpooling (or airplanepooling) where no one is earning anything.

cyberax 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> I'd like to understand why that regulation was written before getting rid of it.

It's simple. Getting a commercial pilot license is a much more involved process than getting a private pilot license.

A private pilot needs just around 30 hours of flight time to get a license. A commercial pilot needs at least 250 hours and a medical certificate that needs to be renewed periodically.

hoistbypetard 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> It's simple. Getting a commercial pilot license is a much more involved process than getting a private pilot license.

I understood that. But the post I quoted said that you couldn't accept payment even if you were a licensed commercial pilot, if you owned the plane. I'd expect the 250 hours and the medical certificate to be enough to make it safe for you to accept payment, and apparently the regulators who formulated the rule don't think that's the case. I was saying that I'd like to understand why they don't think that's the case before I'd want to support any relief on that rule.

cyberax 4 days ago | parent [-]

> But the post I quoted said that you couldn't accept payment even if you were a licensed commercial pilot

You absolutely can. But your _aircraft_ also has to be maintained to commercial standards (likely FAR 135).

Basically, you need to operate an airline to carry paying passengers.

FireBeyond 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> A commercial pilot needs at least 250 hours and a medical certificate that needs to be renewed periodically.

That's true, but for anything other than the most podunk regional airline, you're going to need 1,500 PIC (pilot-in-command) hours before the airline will even consider you (although I believe I heard due to pilot shortages some airlines were willing to consider 1,000 hours).

ryandrake 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There are strict rules, but in general small plane owners who are private, non-commercial pilots may still share operating costs with someone they bring along with them. 61.113(c) permits pilots to share operating expenses of a flight with passengers provided the pilot pays at least his or her pro rata share of the operating expenses of the flight. Operating expenses are limited to fuel, oil, airport expenditures and rental fees.

cco 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the US, home ownership rates usually hover around 60%.

So most homes are owned by the occupant. I suppose if you want to be pedantic and say mortgaged homes are owned by the bank, sure I guess?

But I think homes should not be included in your list here.

FireBeyond 4 days ago | parent [-]

> I suppose if you want to be pedantic and say mortgaged homes are owned by the bank

Well, pedantically, you own the home, but the bank has a lien, and contractual rights in the event of default. But the title is in your name.

Contrast to a vehicle, where the lender is the Legal Owner on registration docs, and retains title (in all but two states, I believe).

toast0 4 days ago | parent [-]

I've seen vehicle registration documents with an owner and a lienholder. But the lienholder is also in possession of the title (which may be electronic). I see a few more than two states where the owner is in possession of the title, but I haven't lived in any of those.

I think the difference is for real estate, title documents and liens are recorded, whereas for vehicles, titles are registered, and possession of the physical title is almost enough to change the registration; it makes sense for the lender to physically hold the title until the loan is satisfied, in order to prevent a sale without paying back the loan.

jancsika 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> On the other hand, if they were flying in a small airplane owned by one of them, it's illegal to split the costs of wear on the airplane, unless its a rental or air taxi.

This isn't true:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/...

That AC and the regulations cited in it couldn't be clearer-- if you and the pilot are both going to $destination for $reasons, you and the pilot can definitely split the cost of the fuel.

Moreover, this is perfectly analogous to the carpooling example as you stated it-- two people both having a stated purpose traveling to a destination, both sharing the cost of gas/wear.

There of course could be ways to carpool where the passengers pay the total cost of the driver's gas/wear/etc. You can't do that in your airplane. But again, I think the reasons for this are glaringly obvious-- keep silicon valley from attempting to create an unregulated taxi service in the sky. (In fact, IIRC there was someone who tried over a decade ago-- perhaps these laws are a response to that?)

> Because of this, and other similar effects of FAA regulations, many small airplane owners own a company that owns the airplane, instead of owning it outright, and rent the airplane from themselves, whenever they use it.

I mean, the pilots I know who do that are either a) multiple people owning a single plane, or b) single owner literally running a rental taxi service. Who isn't covered by those two categories?

Cyberdogs7 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The op clearly stated wear, not fuel. Hourly rates on a plane will have a maintenance reserve, from tens to hundreds of dollars per hour. This cost can not be shared by a pilot. If the plane is owned by an LLC, and rents the plane to the pilot at a rate that includes the maintenance reserve, the cost of the rental CAN be split. So by putting the plane in an LLC, you can legally recoup the true cost from your friends.

dlcarrier 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's pretty common for a single person to form a trust or LLC to buy an airplane, but it's mostly only worth the cost when the airplane is very expensive or when it's going to be used for commercial activity. I used the only example I could think of, off hand, that applies to non-commercial activity, because it's more relatable.

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that the advisory circulars, legal interpretations, and other letters the FAA writes aren't regulations, and it takes a ruling going to a federal court, not an FAA panel or tribunal, to set a precedent for what is and isn't legal. As far as I understand, this has never happened with FAR 61.113, which is a bit self contradictory and the FAA's overly broad definition of compensation where "the building up of flight time may be compensatory in nature if the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft" (https://www.faa.gov/media/15611) is extremely unlikely to ever hold up to a jury.

aeternum 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, regulation often inadvertently creates both barriers to entry and economies of scale.

Government should focus on making it easier for new companies to compete as that is what generally yields better and/or less expensive products.