As a teacher I have become more skeptical about whole maker movement. Don't get me wrong - I really appreciate what has become possible. I couldn't even dream about most of it when I grew up in seventies in Soviet Union. I use a lot of open source hardware and the results maker movement myself as a hobbyist and as a teacher.

But the problem is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't translate to engineering careers. Kids don't want to become engineers as result, they want to become content creators, tinkerers etc. Even rather good students with a lot of potential see all this engineering stuff more as a media career or a fun hobby.

PS. I don't say the engineering hobby isn't cool and fun. I don't say that maker movement doesn't produce incredibly cool and deep stuff. I'm not even saying that it's the only reason why there is a shortage of engineers. But it's certainly contributing because I see it.

I'm a member of local engineering community and I see a lot of stuff like the quality of civil engineering sinking and we're all paying for mistakes in it. I see a lot of local production closing only because all R&D engineers are 60+ and planning to retire.

Is having more tinkerers or Bill Nye's really a bad thing?

From what I’ve seen at maker and science fairs, these events often attract students who feel overlooked in schools that heavily prioritize sports. How many schools have pristine football fields, while the physics teacher is spending money out of their own pocket to build hands-on experiment kits, just to show students that physics is more than what’s in a textbook? (That was the case for my dad)

These fairs open kids eyes to a broader world. One that celebrates creativity, problem-solving, and scientific curiosity.

Not every student needs to become an engineer. What matters is that they feel hopeful about the future and engaged in something positive, instead of turning to drugs or escapism.

> But the problem is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't translate to engineering careers.

Absolutely baffling comment.

Like if kids started eating healthy and the complaint was 'yea, but they're not interested in growing up to be professional nutrionists'

> But the problem is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't translate to engineering careers.

Gross.

Maybe people should be able to enjoy doing things. Not every moment of child rearing needs to be dedicated to maximizing shareholder value.

And maybe it would be good to extend that attitude into adulthood.

If everything on show at open sauce were those stupid 3D printed dragons I'd agree with you. But the maker movement is massive and interesting and goes very very deep.

You can self-learn as much about engineering as you'd learn at university. Most kids eventually pivot from wanting to be astronauts/influencers to something more realistic.

IMO tinkering is an amazing hobby which will benefit you in whatever direction your career ends up going in.

I don't see how you go from "it doesn't cause engineering careers" to "it's one of the reasons there's a shortage of engineers".

> But the problem is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't translate to engineering careers.

I think there has always been that though. When having a guitar was cool and people thought they'd be famous doing it. Of course 0.00001% actually managed it, but some craft out a career in music or related areas such as being studio engineers etc. (I did)

And for some it shows that it is possible, that people like them can be enabled and make their own stuff.

It might be that they're are organisations needed to bridge this new gap and get people into more formal engineering, but they'll also hopefully realise that people like them might work one day at top tier engineering companies.

I don't think the fact that you can make fairly serious mechatronic devices with pocket money can conceivably be a bad thing for engineering as a discipline. However this does mean there are a lot of people that own a 3d printer that will never be good engineers.

> Even rather good students with a lot of potential see all this engineering stuff more as a media career or a fun hobby.

This seems positive, no?

I love the idea that young people want to make stuff and tinker in their free time.

> they want to become content creators, tinkerers etc.

Because there's no incentive alignment in the market to cooperate on larger works.

I've been grinding away to solve this exact problem. https://prizeforge.com/vision (don't log in yet. deploying things and everything will be deleted)

> it doesn't translate to engineering careers.

'Shortage' of US engineers is same as 'shortage' of developers - artificially engineered by off-shoring and importing foreign labor via H1B etc.

There are jobs, there just aren't jobs that want to pay well..

Parents don't usually send kids to those things with some grand career plan for them in mind, but to occupy the offspring with something that isn't cartoons. Finding what they want to do in life via such activities is just a bonus.

Meanwhile the shortage of engineers is actually a shortage of everyone, as demographics shifted towards there being fewer children overall.

Regarding solutions all eyes should now be on Japan, as they're a harbinger state - crises they have tend to repeat elsewhere - and they have had this problem for decades now.

The maker world I’m familiar with is basically split into two divisions:

There are the people who like building things, and the people who like making content.

Some people check both boxes, but in practice the people who like building things the most aren’t spending time grinding the YouTube game with clickbait thumbnails and constant self promotion.

So like many domains, the part you see on YouTube isn’t representative of the movement as a whole. It captures the people who like entertaining and making videos the most.

Kids don't have to like the things you want them to like. They lead their own lives, so long as it's mostly fulfilling and happy, what's the problem? Don't be the figurative parent who tells their kids what job they should get.

If they really like building stuff like this they can get a career that does it, like Embedded Engineer or Firmware Engineer type roles. And if it's just a hobby that's great too.

I'm not sure about the media part, is it because of Youtubers? If so that sounds like wanting to become the modern version of a movie star. In that situation maybe encourage them to do a multimedia class at school and see if they like it.

I've had a different experience. It probably has to do with my emotional makeup.

I really like engineering; especially the delivery part. That's where I give the results of my work to others, and they use it. It's been that way, since I was a kid.

The delivery part means there's a fairly significant amount of "not fun" stuff, like Quality Assurance, Documentation, and Support.

I don't especially like that part, but the end goal has always made it worth it.

It's been my experience that companies like to pay for the delivery part. For some reason, delivery is important to them.

I'm also "on the spectrum," so process and repetition have always been something I can dig. I find comfort in structure and Discipline, which, in my opinion, are required elements of "engineering," as opposed to "coding."

Maybe the kids are just optimizing for the currency that they think matters most: attention.

They might even be right.

Engineering career is not a goal, but a means. The goal is to build things that people use and you can make a living out of, on scale.

> ... while kids like it a lot ...

How is this a problem?

Is there stats to back this up? I imagine not every kid who watches these creators becomes an engineer, but do more become engineers than non watchers? Or less? I’d be willing to bet more do, even if it’s still not a huge majority. I mean anecdotally I know a lot of engineer friends of mine who like these creators too. I’m a professional software engineer now after watching some of these people when I was younger and being involved in my high schools robotics team. I went to open sauce and saw a bunch of local robotics teams there too. Again maybe they won’t all be engineers but I’m sure more will than the average

> it doesn't translate to engineering careers

From one teacher to another, I'm sorry what?

If teaching kids how build things doesn't encourage them to become engineers, what does?

If you're taking about attention grabbing Youtuber-engineers, I think that is very different than the makerspace movement that gives people access to CNC machines/3D printers/welders without a person needing to personally own a CNC machine/3D printer/welder.

All of the greatest engineers I know spent their childhood playing with legos, hot glue, solding irons, and hobby rocket kits.

Or may be education should be more dynamic, engaging, and interactive, instead of having lowest paid teacher jobs, with overcrowded classes, heavenly focused on boring memorization (without clear purpose), and boring tests.

I don't think getting more kids to want an engineering career is going to improve civil engineering. Lots of people joined the software workforce and the result wasn't better software.

that's not a maker problem, that's a social media modern day problem.

I never payed attention to maker youtubers as a young adult.

What changed everything for me was visiting a hackerspace and getting my own hands dirty making things. I got so distracted making things in the 15 years since that I have never have time to make content to share what I learned. Always more things to build or fix.

Totally the opposite problem to what you describe!

Maybe we should focus more on exposing people to making things in workshops, and communities, rather than content.

Yeah, another side effect is management types are now allergic to things which look like maker projects, even if done with a level of professional engineering seriousness - they are unable to distinguish between the two, so now they dismiss both.

This has been a factor in the slowdown of commercial IoT, as it is often dismissed as science fair stuff.

I would argue that it does turn more people onto engineering paths and will result in more engineers. But it could just be a cool hobby! Does every person who is interested in cooking become a chef? Every person who is into sports become an athlete? Music a musician?

With tech becoming more prevalent, people making more things and people repairing more things, I think it's an overall good thing. Also if they become content creators, then so what?

> Kids don't want to become engineers as result, they want to become content creators, tinkerers etc. Even rather good students with a lot of potential see all this engineering stuff more as a media career or a fun hobby.

Well, let's see, would you rather make your money slaving away in some corporation for absurdly low pay, or pointing a cellphone camera at yourself and attracting an audience of worshippers that could make you squillions with the right sponsorships?

The problem isn't the maker movement; it's the broader problem that "influencer" is the new "rapper". Everybody thinks they can do it, and the younger generations are so much disproportionately sicker with main-character syndrome that they think they deserve the fame and riches of the best and luckiest, even though the Cool Career Pigeonhole Principle says they probably won't get it.

I mean, ultimately, you gotta love the work itself, otherwise why bother. I love game development, but I know I'm never gonna be John Carmack, or even John Romero. I keep doing it for the satisfaction I get from doing the work. Maybe the maker community needs to emphasize that aspect more to counteract influenceritis. Or maybe we need to instill more of a sense of duty and responsibility in our young people, so that the smarter ones will step up and take on engineering jobs out of a sense of service to our civilization.

With narcissism being the defining characteristic of society in the USA, going into the highest reaches of power here, I don't know that that will be possible for a while yet.

Asinine complaint.

1. Not true in the slightest; you even contradict yourself. Engineering interests absolutely do grow from it like you said, and you will never get someone doing good work in an engineering career without a prior interest.

2. Life is not a career. Even just fostering an interest in something creative is invaluable on its own. Perceiving something as harmful because it isn't corporate enough for your tastes makes me extremely sad for you.

I encourage people to learn to program especially if they aren't pursuing a software engineering career. Someone that knows a specific domain that can see it through the lens of an expert at another will understand their domain in a way many others cannot. They will be able to break down problems into a collection of manageable chunks. They will learn valuable lessons that show up when you begin to intimately think your way through specific problems.

People may start out with the idea that they can be content creators. They'll have to go through several steps from planning, iteration, implementation, analyzing success or failure, etc.

I wanted to make video games as a kid. Then it was being a pro gamer. And then it was physics. And then it was linguistics. And now I'm rounding out the end of a software engineering career. I didn't know how to program, and I wasn't particularly mathematically inclined. This led me down several paths all around the idea of generally being a better user of technology.

One of the most seemingly random and yet greatest contributions to my path in life was playing EvE Online. I learned logistics, collaboration, tactics, strategy, spycraft, improvisation, mental fortitude, and even how to administrate LDAP servers. In no way was this a pursuit toward an engineering career.

I'm also a lifelong musician, but there was a significant pause through my twenties due to lack of means. Now that I'm a programmer, I've been able to intuitively command my knowledge of music theory because it's systematic and documented thoroughly.

Learning to play Counter Strike taught me how technique and approach is just as important as mechanical skill. I can specifically recall a tutorial regarding instantly headshotting someone as you round a corner without the need to flick your mouse. You simply anchor your crosshairs to the corner your pivoting around, place it at head height, and click when you see a head. This is an extremely valuable lesson in abstract.

Learning to play Street Fighter competitively was informed by my experience with learning instruments and specifically key components of Jazz. Improvisation, syncopation, consistency, timing, and training the other person to expect one thing and immediately subvert that expectation all translated well.

I am a champion-ranked Rocket League player. To me, my car is an instrument. I practice it like I practice any mechanical skill that I want to make second nature. Repetition, technique refinement and acquisition, control, and composition of all skills simultaneously are shared between these two things. Because of Street Fighter, I also approach it as a fighting game. Attacking your opponent's mental stack is key to high level success in the same way.

David Sirlin's "Play to Win" taught me the value of removing artificial constraints. I seek to explore the bounds of any problem space to their fullest extent and use that knowledge to exploit opportunities without changing the space I'm in. This is a book about applying Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" to Street Fighter and not directly abstract in the least.

Factorio is a common programmer obsession. Because of this game, I have an intuitive mental model of algorithms and data structures, separation of concerns, fault tolerance, and how different parts of any system interact. It's not abstract math in my head- it's Factorio.

My father started his career as a draftsman for oil companies, and his command over his hands has always inspired me. Reading "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" showed me that I could engage abstract thought at will. This would come up later when I read "Thinking, Fast and Slow" and I was able to draw connections between artistic pseudo science and an intellectual understanding of different modes of thought.

I am a veteran. My job was being a Crypto Linguist. My experience in the military taught me the value of motivation, rigor, and discipline. I failed basic Spanish multiple times in high school and yet could dream in Korean with the right environment supporting me. These skills and lessons are key to becoming an expert at anything.

I dismantle opponents in Rocket League by applying mental stack management from Street Fighter, tactical prowess from EvE, discipline and motivation from the military, acquisition of mechanical skill from learning instruments, and exploitation of existing mechanics from "Play to Win". Nearly everything I've learned has created a rich tapestry of thought that I pull from.

I am now a successful, specialized software engineer with a long career. I stumbled into this, and I've never been able to succeed with formal higher education. I attended several high schools, often switching mid-semester. This destroyed my ability to get the ball rolling in mathematics. I could write a compiler before I truly understood what math was. Everything from my childhood acted as the foundation for where I am today- even if it was "pointlessly" meandering my way through trying to make a video game, a better MySpace page, process diagrams, drawing, setting up Linux, audio engineering, etc.

People don't take a direct path to their dreams. They evolve and their former experiences inform their future goals, choices, and opportunities.

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