| ▲ | threatofrain 4 days ago |
| I don't know what universe this SEO-consultant author lives in. The author gives Next & Nuxt as an example of the kind of frameworks going against his prescription, but that is so wrong. 1. Next won the war in the west, big time. Very very big time. Whenever people talk about new React apps they inadvertently mean Next. On the Vue side Nuxt is the default winner, and Nuxt is just the Next of Vue. That means that by default, by reflexive instinct, people are choosing Next and MPA as their strategy. If you want to correct the overly extreme pendulum motion then you should be telling people to try out SPA. The last 8 years has been a feverish push for MPA. Even the Facebook docs point straight to Next, totally deprecating Create React App. This is also Facebook ceding their battle to Next. 2. Whenever people complain about the complexity of Next, they are complaining about the difficulties of cutting edge MPA strategy, which evolves on a year to year basis. SPA on the other hand is a story that has frozen in time for who knows how many years. Almost a decade? 3. Doing MPA is strictly harder than doing SPA, much much harder. You have to observe the server/client distinction much more closely, as the same page may be split down the middle in terms of server/client rendered. 4. If you're writing an SPA and want to be more like MPA and load data at the time of hitting a user-navigable endpoint, that's on you, benefits and costs and all. You can also load data with anticipation so the client navigation is basically instant. 5. For every sexy SEO-able front-facing property you're going to have many teams with internal apps or dashboards backing that front-facing property. That's where many React devs are employed. Do not unnecessarily take on burden because you're so eager to ship the first "frame" of your app in a perfect way. |
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| ▲ | brulard 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| How did next win the React framework war? Is it not few years already that see exodus from next to remix/react router, and more recently to tanstack start etc. because of unnecessary complexity, difficulty to run next on anything but vercel, misguided API changes etc.? You mentioning facebook docs pointing to next, when they explicitly mention remix and other is quite misleading. |
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| ▲ | threatofrain 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Well, you must know how to look at download stats, search metrics, GitHub activity, social media temperature, or job posts. I feel that seeing is believing with your own eyes is sufficient for anyone who wants to investigate the issue of whether there’s any winner in popularity. To not be misleading I wouldn’t have brought up the existence of remix lest people think Microsoft belongs in the same discussion as my software consultancy. To be clear I’m using Tanstack Start right now. | | |
| ▲ | brulard 3 days ago | parent [-] | | By your logic PHP and Java won the programming language war. And according to github stars, (which may be considered rough measure of overall usage, not of current trend) next.js has 4x more than remix. So if your sw consultancy is one fourth size of Microsoft, you are close to a trillion dollar business. Even if you exagerrated by few orders of magnitude, thats still very big achievement, so congrats. | | |
| ▲ | threatofrain 3 days ago | parent [-] | | https://npmtrends.com/next-vs-nuxt-vs-remix Also look at trajectory. Oh my, don't you think? When I choose things like Tanstack Start, I am very clear that this is beta software and an early bet. When I'm talking about winners in the ecosystem, I am not going to bring up Tanstack and most definitely not Remix. I don't want to confuse people into thinking they belong on the same table of discussion for ecosystem winners. | | |
| ▲ | brulard 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Your information are outdated. Let me correct your chart a little
https://npmtrends.com/next-vs-nuxt-vs-react-router-vs-remix Remix no longer exists as it was all migrated to react-router. react-router v7 is what remix v3 should have been. | | |
| ▲ | threatofrain 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I think at some point there was more interest in framework as a startup, and there was indication that having a popular router (React Router) was a sufficient advantage in the race to at least try to win. Then Shopify bought them up to maybe hedge against Hydrogen. Remix never went anywhere for Shopify, Shopify didn't buy React Router, only Remix. Now, as you say, Remix is being retired. My own Remix app was rewritten as I was tired of upgrading pains. But what do you think of the argument that this is moreso Shopify folding their hand than Shopify realizing their bet via React Router? |
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| ▲ | jbreckmckye 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I don't know what universe this SEO-consultant author lives in. After looking over the author's blog I can see 1. Very high output 2. Lots of AI images 3. Weird writing and editing lapses in several posts I am moderately confident this post was written with an AI. It may not be totally AI produced, I think the author has probably edited the work, but I think we are mostly debating synthetic content. |
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| ▲ | ivape 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There was a war? News to me. Saying Next won is like saying React won. Nothing won, everyone just latched on to what they thought the crowd vetted. The blind can't lead each other. Most people that stuck to Angular or minimal or no-frameworks are truly wondering what the fuck are all these people talking about?. Even the Facebook docs point straight to Next Startups and SV jerk each other off by promoting each other (think affiliates). None of it means shit. Next is probably a garbage framework, but it's people's livelihoods. It's very hard to erase something that literally defines people (yes, your resume is YOU). |
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| ▲ | frollogaston 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Kinda is a war unless you're working solo, cause you're gonna get forced to use something or another. When I tried a few solo web projects instead of just being a backend guy, I picked up React on my own because it was the only thing that makes sense. The page does what the code says. And that was after trying other things. Now I gotta occasionally use Angular, and it's boilerplate hell. Adding one button involves editing 30 classes and files even if you don't use templates. I took a course at work where even the instructor got confused adding a button. Why would anyone ever use this besides Google, or do they even use it? | | |
| ▲ | Tokumei-no-hito 4 days ago | parent [-] | | in the world of frameworks it's obvious that html in your JS > JS in your html. angular is a mess. it's the java of web frameworks. if you want up be enterprise(tm) go for it. I’m convinced it's only a thing because it gives people job security since nobody else chooses to touch it. | | |
| ▲ | Anamon 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't know what you guys are doing with your Angular buttons, or if you haven't looked at it since AngularJS (which I never used, so I don't know what it took there). Adding a button to Angular is just adding a <button> to your template. If you want to use Angular Material, that's one additional import in your component's code file, and one additional attribute for that template's <button> element. import {MatButtonModule} from '@angular/material/button';
<button matButton (click)="onClick()">Click me!</button>
That's it. If your instructor got confused trying to achieve that, maybe that's why you were left with this weird impression of how verbose and complicated Angular is.Just at least have a look at the documentation or tutorial before spreading fibs like that. | |
| ▲ | frollogaston 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There was also the actual Java of web frameworks, GWT |
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| ▲ | threatofrain 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Startups and SV jerk each other off by promoting each other (think affiliates). None of it means shit. No, this is FB ceding the battle. They absolutely didn't want this. They dropped CRA because social media celebrities were shitting on CRA. Dan Abramov had to do a complete 180 in a single day, after writing a long thoughtful essay in defense of CRA. | | |
| ▲ | afavour 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Wars, battles, personalities on social media… I don’t want to sound too much like a grouchy old man but these frameworks are tools. Nothing more than that. I can’t understand why anyone would become emotionally invested in any of them. When starting a project the right move to examine what best fits your project, not which one was recently victorious in a war. I’ve grown to dislike React because I see it being abused so often for a site where it isn’t necessary. There are plenty of projects where it is necessary too, but that’s not universal. | | |
| ▲ | luckylion 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > I can’t understand why anyone would become emotionally invested in any of them. I think that's simple: because they are financially invested in them. That's obvious for the developers working on the frameworks themselves or building libraries / plugins / UI-themes for them, but I believe it's also correct for "normal" developers who build things with these frameworks. They know these frameworks and can use them, and they've made an investment in time to get to that point. Likely they're also making at least some of their money _because_ they know these frameworks. Emotional attachment follows the economic attachment, and then you'll get plenty of rationalizations. | |
| ▲ | bryanrasmussen 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I can’t understand why anyone would become emotionally invested in any of them. sure, but I suppose you can observe that they do? And hence >Wars, battles, personalities on social media become reasonable narratives to engage in to describe what is actually happening in the social activities that form around these tools | |
| ▲ | threatofrain 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can ignore all the phrasings of wars or battles or winning and losing, and you can also ignore that social media has consequences. We can agree that frameworks are just tools. And as tools we can coldly think about trends and other meta-facts, including questions on popularity. We don't need to think about popularity in terms of winning or losing either, just numbers that move around so we can use them as predictors of mindshare and career opportunities. And in that sense, the right tool that fits the job often includes an analysis on popularity, especially because the best tool is often one that you and your colleagues already know. |
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| ▲ | ivape 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You are in your own little universe. Social media celebrities shitting on React? I don't even want to enter your world. "Bro, you should see the celebrities shitting on React" Like WHO!? What developer celebrity, what universe have I been missing out on? Anyway, I do love me a good ol' fashioned "fuck SPAs, back to HTML" punching bag post on HN. It's always the same discussion over and over. | | |
| ▲ | threatofrain 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | We're living in the same universe. When you read the documentation you see something. I'm just giving the story behind it. You don't need generic answers about people wanking each other off for "think affiliates". | | |
| ▲ | ivape 4 days ago | parent [-] | | We are absolutely not living in the same universe. Please don't insult me. As a self-respecting developer, I do not understand the word "celebrity". |
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| ▲ | frollogaston 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | said celebrity is an AI-generated Peter Griffin |
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