I would still count it as the Linux kernel. They don't change the syscall API, it's really mostly at the BSP level, right?

Said differently: if manufacturers cared to mainstream their changes, they could. And we would all be better for it.

Android is Linux

Android is not GNU/Linux.

Article talks about GNU/Linux clearly. There is a point to the whole "I'd like to interject for a moment..." copypasta and Android's situation is the clearest illustration of it.

This has been repeated for so long that in the meantime enough of the changes have been upstreamed such that Android has been able to run with the upstream kernel since 6 years ago.

Seeing how the Linux name is used in practice, it's useful to clarify.

"IT'S GNU/LINUX!" ~ rms

Which is exactly why people here talk about "Linux Desktop". Linux is a kernel, Linux Desktop is some flavour of a full OS made to run on a PC, as opposed to e.g. embedded Linux or a Linux server.

Not sure what your point is?

A distinction without a difference. The point of this subthread is that the term Linux is overloaded to mean two things: a kernel and also an OS that has certain assumptions (usually glibc and some unix userspace stuff).

The point being that “Linux Desktop” means something more than “runs the Linux kernel”.

So anyone saying "the Windows operating system" is doing wrong?

> unless you hook a screen and keyboard to it, I suppose.

You can run Steam Deck in "Desktop mode" without hooking a screen and keyboard to it, and it will be running a full Desktop Linux environment.

If I plug a screen and keyboard to my Android, it's still a mobile OS (e.g. made to run with a touch screen). Samsung has apparently "dex" and Google is working on convergence as well, but this is not yet a thing.

I'm looking forward to being able to hook a screen and keyboard to an Android phone and have it behave like a Desktop Android, though :-).

I attach screen + keyboard to it often. It has an official dock to facilitate this. In my mind, it's a device that can function as both desktop and hand-held.

It is very visible that Desktop mode is not primary function of Steam Deck, though. Some weird behavior here and there, reboot always goes into gaming mode and so on. It's a gaming handheld first, desktop second.

I mean, a keyboard on iPad is way less powerful than a keyboard on steam deck. The steam deck can plug into a monitor and runs Plasma out of the box, which is a full blown desktop environment

Even in the "normal mode", I would argue that it is still Linux Desktop. A Linux Desktop init system, with a Linux Desktop userspace, with a Linux Desktop libc, with the Linux Desktop security model, a Linux Desktop package manager, a Linux Desktop compositor (it uses something based on Wayland, right?), etc.

If you open a terminal (or SSH into it), you're on Linux. It's very, very different on Android.

> how many of the people using a Steam Deck [...] care that it is Linux

Probably most don't. But that's a goal. If corporate employees could use a Linux Desktop without caring that it is Linux, it would mean that the corporation can move to Linux, and that would be big.

> how many of the people using a Steam Deck actually go into desktop mode or care that it is Linux

How many Windows users care that it is Windows? They just want to click on the Internet icon.

One way to think about it is what APIs application developers are using. If most of the code running on a Steam Deck is Windows code running under a compatibility layer, it probably doesn’t help the larger Linux community in the same way that, say, iOS popularity has helped ensure that many libraries have excellent macOS support.

> But, I think there is a conversation around this to ask how many of the people using a Steam Deck actually go into desktop mode or care that it is Linux

If Linux adoption is to increase significantly (and I guess I'm of the opinion that would be a positive thing), then at some point that can only be done by acquiring users who don't care particularly deeply or understand much about their OS. That is, the vast majority of people. And that's probably not going to happen by converting that demographic to true believers.

Some of those people might decide they want to dig deeper later, and that's great. Most won't and that's fine too.

It would be a bit asymmetrical to restrict the definition of "Linux user" to folk who really care what Linux is or know their way around coreutils.

Think about it from a brand perspective. If you were microsoft and some flavor of windows were running on people's phone and game station, would you claim this market share? I'm sure they would.

Linux Desktop is something else. When Adobe considers if it's worth to port Photoshop to run on the Linux Desktop they don't include the market share of Android devices in that calculation. It's two completely different markets: desktop Linux apps and Android apps.

> What even is "Linux Desktop" and why does Android not qualify as one?

A desktop is a computer that sits on your desk, as opposed to being held in your hand. In concrete terms, you can install Android Firefox on ChromeOS, and it runs fine. But it is near unusable because it turns out how people interact with desktops is very different to how people interact with phones.

Also, desktop window managers tend to look like a protocol, rather than a library. That because every language can speak a protocol, but a library is written in one language and if you are lucky, someone many have provided bindings to that library to the language you are using.

Android's display is effectively a Java library. If you want to talk to it from C or Python, you have to FFI to Java, which sucks from a number of perspectives. It's not how you would implement a general purpose desktop environment, and I've never met anyone who considers it to be one.

That lack of flexibility shows up in a number of other ways. For example it's not difficult to implement an phone OS interface using XWindows or Wayland. Neither particularly care what window manager is running on top of them them. The reverse isn't true. You can't provide a the multi-window desktop environment on Android as it stands.

None of this is true for ChromeOS. It uses Wayland under the hood, and so you can install and run Debian GUI apps on it. In fact I do that, and it mostly works as you would expect. Thus I consider ChromeOS to be true Linux Desktop environment, and it should be counted as one. It isn't mind you - but I think should be.

Google seems to be in the process of replacing ChromeOS with Android, and as part of that process ChromeOS's ability to run Linux desktop apps is being ported to Android. If and when that happens, then I'd consider Android to be Linux desktop too.

Where does that 99% number come from?

The very reason why I bought a Steam Deck is because it is both a handheld and a Linux Desktop.

Android users are Linux users. So are Nintendo Switch users, the whole "can Linux game/be used for mobile" question is already answered.

You would be correct if steam deck users were in line with the average computer user, but they definitely skew more towards the tech savvy crowd - the crowd that would be interested in desktop/emulation.

Part of this is in order to use a steam deck, unless you want to be very limited, you kind of have to be a little more tech savvy. I love my deck, but it is definitely not plug and play/turn key like a switch is for instance. Hell until a year or so ago swapping between gaming and desktop mode resulted in a total crash like 30% of the time. It still doesn’t dock and undock seamlessly, you get all kinds of wild behavior with standard TVs still, and if you’re off your home network and it tries to update it can still lock you out. It’s not as bad as it used to be, but it’s still a distinct possibility.

I love it and frankly the machine is a marvel, especially at its price point. But I still struggle to recommend it to people.

Steam Deck has (accessible in menu by default) desktop mode that is just KDE with desktop icons and everything.

By picking a standard menu option I can go to a traditional desktop and use Libre Office and Firefox.

Can I so that with a Switch?

I can plug in a USB dock, with a monitor, mouse and keyboard and edit images with GIMP.

Can I do that with a PS5?

If I like the Steam Deck UI, I can install a package on my desktop and pick it on login, thus gaining basically all of this functionality. I in fact do have the SteamOS 3 UI installed on a gaming PC, and it works really well.

Can I install the PS5 UI and the ability to play PlayStation games on a BSD box?

I can't use a Switch as a Desktop Linux, I can use my Steam Deck as a Desktop Linux.

It's not exactly a belief, it's my experience.

> Thinking that some tasks are better suited to a desk / 2 monitors is apparently a millennial thing now .

Sad, but true. Recent batch of new hires where I work, same age range - mid-late 20's, none of them have computers at home except their work issued laptop. They are by far the biggest source of help desk tickets for us, and same story as you, using phone & iPad for everything at home.

Honestly concerns me for talent recruitment in the future, if AI isn't doing everything tech when that time comes - kids only tech experiences now are fully locked down walled gardens, takes away both the ability and incentive to tinker, explore, or even troubleshoot. Whole generation of new workers coming in without even the most basic of troubleshooting/problem solving skills. Have a few at my work where even just reading an error message on the screen seems overwhelming to them.

I had my first personal computer in 1986. But I can easily do all of those things just as conveniently on my phone.

90% of tax payers claim the standard deduction. That means filing your taxes just means going to Turbo tax and it importing your W2’s automatically if your employer uses one of the major payment providers like ADP or worse case taking a picture of your W2, clicking “Next” a few times after answering a few questions and it’s done.

Why would I need a desktop to buy plane tickets? I launch my airline app, get the ticket.

Plans? For my personal projects I use Trello. I have an M2 MacBook Air that I only bought when I was between jobs for around a month to do a side contract.

My wife wanted a new computer to replace her aging x86 MacBook Air and then her older iPad went out. We bought an iPad Air 13 inch and paid $70 for a regular old Bluetooth keyboard and mouse and that’s her “computer” now.

Yes, top of the list, it shows :)

Latops and desktops, it's a mix here. Older people had mainly desktops in the past. That's my experience, at least.

Banking, yeah mainly phones because of ridiculous forced banking apps from corporate masters, like everywhere else? (certain bank even lost a lot of customers because of that)

Taxes, if you are just an employee, taxes are done by your employer for you, by law. (I presume it's a post-communism BS, so people doesn't pay attention how much taxes we pay.)

If you have other types of income, you do it yourself, you have app/website to click through it, easy. Not automatic though. Self-employed IT pay less taxes than normal employees :D and overall lower-income people pay bigger taxes by percentage, what a great country :D

We call your country Holland, great country imho, If I would thinking about moving, that's top option for me.

Only thing that keeps me here are best gun laws in EU (I have Glock, AR15 clone, Bren3 ordered), you can conceal carry nearly everywhere, you can even use gun for self-defense, sadly very low criminality here :)

Hell, I can even legally carry katana, not kidding.

Linux is used only by IT people, friends cannot switch because they play MP games with invasive Anticheat running on kernel.

Personally, I'm only switching people to Linux if they cannot afford new PC because of Win11 upgrade. Zorin OS usually.

College students will have laptops or a laptop-like device.

Wow, isn't that painful without a big screen and keyboard? [1] Most primary schools here (NL) use Chromebooks or Windows laptops. High schools sometimes have a BYOD, but you certainly have to bring a laptop.

[1] Of course, you can hook up most phones to a display, keyboard, mouse, but that blurring the lines a bit. A Samsung DeX device or future Pixel desktop mode device hooked up to peripherals is pretty much a desktop (Pixel will even support Linux apps in a VM).

I'm a millenial and I'm touch typing. The idea of writing long texts on a phone or tablet feels ridiculous to me. I already get annoyed when I have to write an e-mail on my phone. Also, I find the mobile UX for text formatting, cut/copy/paste extremely frustrating.

Interesting. I'm also in MA, and my daughters (like all their classmates) mostly use the chromebooks issued by their public high school. They strongly prefer their macbooks tho. Granted, we live in an affluent town. But I thought the chromebooks were a statewide thing.

In highschool classes forever ago we had to write 20+ page papers. I can't imagine trying to do that on a phone!

Interesting. My great nieces have Lenovos (Windows) that they use for school work and light gaming. They'd like better gaming laptops, but don't have them.

This is incredible, wow.

Have they ever tried to use a real computer for that? Can they afford a real computer? Would they prefer a bigger screen and a real keyboard over a tiny screen and an even smaller keyboard? Maybe they just don't have the experience of using a real computer to know how far superior it is to a tiny screen/keyboard?

Using a phone to write papers seems like an exercise in masochism, if better alternatives are available.

It's also possible that their peer group that does use laptops to write papers is doing far better in many ways.

How do you write long school papers on the phone's tiny screen and keyboard?

> Why would I recommend a Linux system?

Greater control over what hardware and software you wish to run. e.g. you wouldn't have to follow Apple's decisions in making things obsolete and effectively keep old hardware running for a lot longer if you so wish. There's also a possible issue in having a U.S. based company in control of your O.S.

A few reasons:

1. iPadOS is kind of ass. Multi-tasking is lacking, cursor support is ehhh, and applications are still dumbed-down. This means more clicks, more actions, to do the same thing.

2. Bluetooth is ass, trust me I know. Thing will disconnect and you will need to manually reconnect them. I don't know why in the year 2025 bluetooth isn't completely seamless, but it isn't.

3. Rinky-dink keyboard and real keyboard is night and day. I've used those iPad keyboards. They suck.

If an OS is used, then that's because people need it, not because they're fighting some imaginary fight in the jungle. It's their preferred OS. If the number of people using computers shrinks, because non-pro users move to mobiles, while the fraction of pros using Linux increases to 95%, or even 50%, I think that's a very clear win for Linux.

The reason why MacOS grew in popularity is because it started to be used by pros, myself included, i.e., I've switched from Linux to MacOS seeing many top computer scientists using MacOS. However, after over 10 years of using MacOS, I'm actually still not sure whether it was worth it, and I'm considering to go back to Linux since a few years. The main reasons stopping me from switching is a reliable Calendar app and concerns about battery life.

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It’s not 50% territory; but it’s enough to push it up from 1-2% to 5%.

There’s interest in LLM and GenAI beyond regular tinkerers; local NSFW image generator models are apparently a thing.