Admittedly yeah SteamOS does walk that line, and I guess technically given that I think these numbers are based on browser data it would only be capturing the people that actually go into desktop mode (maybe?).

But, I think there is a conversation around this to ask how many of the people using a Steam Deck actually go into desktop mode or care that it is Linux (or even understand that it is Linux) vs would switch to a Windows version if it worked as well.

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palata a day ago | parent | next [-]

Even in the "normal mode", I would argue that it is still Linux Desktop. A Linux Desktop init system, with a Linux Desktop userspace, with a Linux Desktop libc, with the Linux Desktop security model, a Linux Desktop package manager, a Linux Desktop compositor (it uses something based on Wayland, right?), etc.

If you open a terminal (or SSH into it), you're on Linux. It's very, very different on Android.

> how many of the people using a Steam Deck [...] care that it is Linux

Probably most don't. But that's a goal. If corporate employees could use a Linux Desktop without caring that it is Linux, it would mean that the corporation can move to Linux, and that would be big.

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nialv7 a day ago | parent | next [-]

I think it might be good to stand back a bit and think through what we are actually excited for. Because:

1. if someone uses Linux Desktop without caring about that it is Linux, why is that different from them using Windows? 2. why do we say SteamOS count as Linux Desktop but Android doesn't? is it really because how much of it is "Linux"?

For me, I think what matters to me is who has control over it. SteamOS is based on Arch, so the community has a say over where it will go, and Valve will have to work with the community. Android/Windows are fully controlled Google/Microsoft, doesn't matter that Android is Open Source.

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vladvasiliu a day ago | parent | next [-]

As a user, what usually matters to me is what software I'm able to run on it. So even if people don't actually care about the OS itself, they will care that X runs on it but Y doesn't, which, given enough users, may push X to support that OS.

I actually daily drive Linux (Arch) because Windows is a PITA I'm not willing to put up with. But there are things I use which still don't run on Linux (Photoshop and Lightroom), so I'm actually thinking of getting a Mac again instead of having a second PC / dual boot, even though I know that can also be irritating (though less so than Windows).

"Who controls the OS" isn't that important to me. What matters is that it gets out of my way and lets me do what I want to do with as little friction as possible. I know Linux being free means I can go and hack on it however I like. But I also have to contend with reality: I can't reasonably think that I (personnally) am going to hack on the kernel or on some desktop environment in any meaningful measure, so I still have to put up with whatever other people figure is best.

But if there are enough people like me, including those who don't actually care about what OS they're running, maybe the apps I want to run will adopt Linux. But that only matters because, as it turns out, it's the OS which I find the less irritating to use. If tomorrow Windows 12 finally became sane, I'd switch in a heartbeat. I'm not married to Linux.

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palata a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If someone runs Linux Desktop without caring that it is Linux, it still means that they use software that runs on Linux. Say if governments move to some Linux distro, they will need an office suite, and they may pay for its development.

If someone runs SteamOS, it means that they play games on Linux. So it becomes interesting for game devs to test for Linux. And then if someone runs SteamOS, instead of a dual boot with Windows maybe they just go to the Desktop mode. Which means that instead of Microsoft Office, they use something that runs on Linux, etc.

This is good for the Linux ecosystem. And the reason I like the Linux ecosystem is because, as you say, it's not fully controlled by TooBigTech.

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fragmede a day ago | parent [-]

The alternative to Microsoft Word isn't LibreOffice Writer, it's Google Docs, which is very much controlled by a big tech company.

	▲	palata 19 hours ago \| parent [-]
		If a government chooses to move away from Microsoft, I hope it's not to get closer to Google. And there are alternatives other than LibreOffice and Google Docs.

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schmorptron a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I'd start that conversation from another perspective. If someone uses linux, not caring that it's not windows, then that's a milestone.

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nerdjon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is an interesting distinction, unlike Android I do admit that SteamOS is obviously contributing to Linux Desktop market share. I just think it is a complicated situation.

From my understanding Xbox is running a version of Windows on their consoles (not talking about the new handhelds) tailor made for Xbox. But I would not call that adding to the Windows marketshare.

iOS and iPadOS were started with versions of OSX and then modified (and clearly share some pieces) but we would not call either of those as contributing to Mac's marketshare.

Obviously yes neither of those let you go into the traditional Mac or Windows desktop unlike SteamOS. But how the users perceive it is still important.

> Probably most don't. But that's a goal. If corporate employees could use a Linux Desktop without caring that it is Linux, it would mean that the corporation can move to Linux, and that would be big.

The problem is this works the other way also. If most users of the Steam Deck don't care or really know that it is Linux there is not much getting in the way of Microsoft coming in with their new handheld/OS and eating up that market if they can get the OS to perform as well.

Put another way, if Valve decided (not saying they would, just asking a hypothetical) to either write their own OS or switch the underlying OS to Windows but kept the look of SteamOS as it behaved now and performance was the same. Would most users of the Steam Deck know or care?

Personally I think for claims about the "linux desktop" to really matter, there has to be a conscious desire and care that it is Linux or it could disappear.

	▲	palata a day ago \| parent [-]
		> I do admit that SteamOS is obviously contributing to Linux Desktop market share. I just think it is a complicated situation. Agreed. And IMO, the thing is that you can benefit from the work made on SteamOS on any Linux Desktop. By making most games run on SteamOS, Valve contributed to make Gentoo a better platform for gaming. > If most users of the Steam Deck don't care or really know that it is Linux there is not much getting in the way of Microsoft coming in with their new handheld/OS and eating up that market if they can get the OS to perform as well. Sure. But what I see is really the other side: if SteamOS is relevant, then game devs will have an incentive to support SteamOS, which gives the opportunity for gamers to move to SteamOS. Now they are on Linux, so they can start using software that runs on Linux.

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necovek a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would agree on most points regarding SteamOS except for package manager: there are really two on the system — base one and Steam itself.

Users generally only care about the latter.

	▲	palata a day ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Linux Desktop routinely has multiple package managers (for the better or worse): be it flatpak, pip, npm, nix... but it's still Linux Desktop. Just like you don't need to have the same libc to be a Linux Desktop.
	▲	nemomarx a day ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		At least some of the dedicated ones also want to run epic games or others through heroic, but that's only a little more Linux on top of steam yeah
	▲	cma a day ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		I think it is fixed now, but for a while you couldn't even use the touchpads on the desktop without steam running.

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tuna74 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

There is no "Desktop Linux init system" etc. There are init systems built for/on Linux.

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happymellon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> how many of the people using a Steam Deck actually go into desktop mode or care that it is Linux

How many Windows users care that it is Windows? They just want to click on the Internet icon.

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acdha a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One way to think about it is what APIs application developers are using. If most of the code running on a Steam Deck is Windows code running under a compatibility layer, it probably doesn’t help the larger Linux community in the same way that, say, iOS popularity has helped ensure that many libraries have excellent macOS support.

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anonymous_sorry a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> But, I think there is a conversation around this to ask how many of the people using a Steam Deck actually go into desktop mode or care that it is Linux

If Linux adoption is to increase significantly (and I guess I'm of the opinion that would be a positive thing), then at some point that can only be done by acquiring users who don't care particularly deeply or understand much about their OS. That is, the vast majority of people. And that's probably not going to happen by converting that demographic to true believers.

Some of those people might decide they want to dig deeper later, and that's great. Most won't and that's fine too.

It would be a bit asymmetrical to restrict the definition of "Linux user" to folk who really care what Linux is or know their way around coreutils.

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stackbutterflow a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Think about it from a brand perspective. If you were microsoft and some flavor of windows were running on people's phone and game station, would you claim this market share? I'm sure they would.