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manbitesdog 8 months ago

Facebook is now a birthday-reminder and old-connection-keeper tool loaded with empty content to feel less sad. Instagram and TikTok are also trending towards content consumption. Messaging and group chats are the only real social media now

wil421 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

Facebook groups are like the new Internet forums. There’s tons of stuff that’s moved to Facebook groups like Fishing and Car forums. For a lot of content Facebook groups are much better than forums.

Marketplace seems to be the new Craigslist and much better IMHO.

Posting is probably dead or dying. I haven’t done it in a decade or so.

ultrarunner 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

They could be huge in this, but sadly they'll continue to ruin it because (IMHO) they are rotten at the core. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a question posted on a relevant topic, switched tabs to consult the manual to verify my memory, and then gone back only to see Facebook do its ADHD reload and bury the question.

Once people get sufficiently frustrated and the ad revenue declines below the cost of running the servers, we will immediately lose all of the information shared there. None of it will be archived like the old forums. It's a genuinely sad situation.

bschwindHN 8 months ago | parent [-]

> and then gone back only to see Facebook do its ADHD reload and bury the question

Does anyone know why facebook does this? It's the most infuriating thing, like it's assuming the poor user doesn't know how to "refresh" a page so it does it for them, because clearly they got stuck on an old crusty piece of content.

zoky 8 months ago | parent [-]

You know exactly why they do it. To generate “engagement”.

HeadsUpHigh 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>For a lot of content Facebook groups are much better than forums

Facebook groups are very disjointed and the algo does a bad job and keeping the good bits floating to the top.

dboreham 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In my experience the Facebook groups always turn to crap, especially if it's a group that attracts more than about 500 users. Abusive posts, scam posts, fake groups with the same name created by bots. I've reverted to old school forums for all my special interests. Marketplace is still the best classifieds product though.

freehorse 8 months ago | parent [-]

It depends on the mods and the specific communities the groups are about. I have seen what you describe in some, but not at all in others.

spacechild1 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> For a lot of content Facebook groups are much better than forums.

How so? I find FB groups strictly worse than old-school forums.

Lammy 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't even enjoy FB Groups any more because of the way they filter comments to “most relevant” so I have to click twice to change it to “all comments” on every single post, over and over and over. Tiresome.

It's embarrassingly dumb sometimes, too, like a post can show “3 comments”, I click it, and the “most relevant” will just be two of them with a bunch of empty space left over in the UI. Just show me all of the fucking comments omfg!!!

8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
shanecleveland 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Only reason I caved and joined Facebook a few years ago was to get access to a group dedicated to Boston Whaler boats. There were two previously-thriving forums that were slowly dying. The forums were great. The Facebook group was not better, just alive.

freehorse 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also events, it's probably the platform affecting discoverability of events the most.

The ways fb is (still) the most useful to users are the ones meta cares the least about.

throw042425 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's interesting. In what sense would you say FB groups are much better than forums?

But yeah I agree, groups and marketplace are the only things keeping FB alive.

iamacyborg 8 months ago | parent [-]

They’re better in the sense that people actually use them

shanecleveland 8 months ago | parent [-]

Probably true with most successful things. Marketplace is just a low barrier to entry for people already using Facebook. I find it generally terrible, but that's where people are selling.

naijaboiler 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

would rather use reddit for foruming than facebook groups

freehorse 8 months ago | parent [-]

I would rather have ol' good forums. I would rather have years long posts in the frontpage and the ability to bump a long burried post when new info is up, and not missing the opportunity to engage with a topic just because 1-2 days passed without me logging in and thus the post, being more than 1-2 days old, is not in the frontpage anymore.

corobo 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ooh speaking of birthday reminders - if Facebook is browsing this thread looking for things to fix: bring back the birthday iCal feed!

You literally had notifications via my calendar bringing me back to your site every few days/weeks to say happy birthday and maybe have a bit of a browse. Now the reminders are in my todo list and I say happy birthday via text or call instead. Path of least pain in the backside.

Absolutely bizarre they ditched the birthdays and events iCal feeds.

barbazoo 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

Funny that you think they’d prioritize something that’d be useful, good for you.

pixl97 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

Boss: "you're only allowed to work on things that serve more ad views"

reverendsteveii 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Remember when they told us that capitalism would cause people to trip over themselves to give us what we want and need because that would naturally be where most of the profit could be had? Why do you think it didn't do that in this case? The answer of course is that facebook does serve it's customers. It serves the people who can afford to buy ads, and what it serves them is you.

asimpletune 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

Honestly, everything would be much better if either a.) people just paid for stuff or b.) governments decided ad-tech in its present form should not be a thing, and regulated the retention of personal data as a liability, to make targeted advertising less-personalized/unprofitable.

As a system for discovering price, free markets work really well. The downsides comes from politicians not understanding/caring the limitations of free markets and what kinds of problems they're simply not intended to solve. These are the economic factors beyond price. More broadly, they're our values.

If we outsource the need for philosophy/wisdom to the free markets then there is no reason why the market will not demand child labor, 7 day work weeks, single use everything, and privatized security forces. We failed to take action earlier, and the same kind of stuff has already happened to the environment. Not to mention that gambling and security fraud are making a comeback.

reverendsteveii 8 months ago | parent [-]

I'm 100% with you on the idea that it's time to start paying for services on the internet instead of the ad-funded model we have today. The problem is that the people who decide when and how to monetize things seem to be moving toward a model where they charge you for the service, sell your data and feed you ads.

bdangubic 8 months ago | parent [-]

100% this… everything you pay for is already selling your data and will eventually feed you ads.

asimpletune 8 months ago | parent [-]

If lawmakers regulated data retention to make targeted advertising unprofitable, then businesses would have no choice but to compete for customer’s money directly by providing value.

anonymars 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The missing ingredient is usually "competition"

Same thing with the "private sector is always better" religion - if there's no meaningful competition, you end up no choice coupled with a profit motive, vs. no choice but I can at least nominally vote and be represented

ISPs are usually a good example in the US. My old apartment had one provider, and wouldn't you know it, at my new apartment with multiple providers, I got five times the bandwidth for half the price.

See also: enshittification

reverendsteveii 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

In light of competition being the missing ingredient, the question becomes how does one maintain ongoing competition in a system where the bigger of two competitors tends to win and the winner of two competitors tends to get bigger? That's exactly what happened here: Facebook was bigger than WhatsApp, and FB+WA is bigger than Insta, so FB+WA+Insta is a lot bigger than anyone else.

Back in the day when Microsoft was the one in the DoJ's sights someone compared it to a dog race. Dogs don't have jockeys, so you have to figure out some other way to induce them to run. The way most tracks (probably all, idk much about dog racing but it's a useful metaphor here) do that is by having a mechanical bunny that runs out ahead of the dogs and activates their prey drive. The bunny has to be ahead of the dogs, but not so far ahead that they don't think they can catch it and give up. That means that every once in a while a dog will get the timing just right, go extra hard, and actually catch the bunny. At that point, the race is over for everyone until someone steps in to shake the dog loose from the bunny and give everyone a reason to run again. Our system is like that: we have to encourage everyone to do everything they can to catch the bunny but also ensure that they never actually do. Bill Gates was the first person in my memory to catch the bunny, and needed to be shaken loose. Now it's Zuckerberg, and probably Google, that need to be pried off of their respective bunnies so that everyone else has something to chase.

safety1st 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

For a start, and it might even be enough, you strictly enforce anti-trust laws which are already on the books that prevent sufficiently large firms from acquiring their competitors and doing exclusivity deals. These laws have largely been ignored for decades and I don't know what to call that other than blatant corruption of our government, but it's slowly starting to change, in a bipartisan way.

Microsoft escaped the worst of what the government wanted to do to them for their anti-trust violations. It may not go so well for Google as they hold the distinction of being the only company in US history to have been tried and found guilty in three separate cases of possessing three illegal monopolies all at the same time. Two example measures under discussion in the court at the moment are forbidding any renewal of their browser default deal with Apple, and forcing them to sell off Chrome. We will see soon enough what comes next.

Whoppertime 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Foreign competitors is how you get competition usually. The big 3 auto companies can lobby Congress and discourage competition. When American Cars started installing tailfins (purely cosmetics) instead of competing on fuel performance, maintenance or price, they were opening the door for the Japanese auto industry to eventually take over, with the crisis of the oil shock being the instigating factor for people changing their consumption habits

thesuitonym 8 months ago | parent [-]

That only works as long as the companies don't pay Congress to keep foreign competitors out of the market. To continue the automobile example, consider why the market for light trucks in the US is almost exclusively American brands.

jerf 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The missing ingredient here is that there is a gulf between what people really need, and what they do. Capitalism/market forces/etc. optimize on that "what people really do" and not what they need, and especially not what they say they want. See also, for instance, the layout of your grocery store.

The good news is that capitalism is in fact really good at serving exactly the preferences you reveal through your actions, and there are ways in which that is good. The bad news is that the farther away we get from our "native environment" the farther our needs and revealed preferences are diverging. I can think of no equivalent threat in our ancestral environment to "scrolling away your day on Facebook". Sloth and laziness aren't new, but that enticement to it is very new.

The discipline to sit, think with your brain, and realize with your system 2 brain [1] that you need to harness and control your system 1 urges is moving from "a recipe to live a good life" (e.g., wisdom literature, Marcus Aurelius, Proverbs, Confucious, many many other examples dating back thousands of years), but one a lot of people lived reasonably happily without, to a necessity to thrive in the modern environment. Unfortunately, humans have never, ever been collectively good at that.

And the level of brutality that system 2 must use on system 1 is going up, too. Resisting an indulgent dinner is one thing; carrying around the entire internet in your pocket and resisting darned near every vice simultaneously, continuously, is quite another. In my lifetime this problem has sharpened profoundly from minor issue to major problem everyone faces every hour.

For a much older example, see "drugs". Which is also a new example as the frontier expands there, too.

I have no idea what a solution to this at scale looks like. But I am quite optimistic we will ultimately find one, because we will have to. The systems can't just keep getting better and better at enticement to the short-term with no other social reaction.

[1]: https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/philosophy/system...

reverendsteveii 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

We talk about capitalism being really good at serving revealed preferences, but the thing becomes a bit more twisty when you start talking about capitalism and mass media's ability to shape those preferences. From Bernays to Chomsky we have reams of literature about how mass media is used to tell people what they want, then capitalism supplies it to them, then mass media tells them how free and blessed they are to receive just what they want.

Definitely hard agree on the split between slow, deliberative, rationally-focused thinking and quick, subconscious, emotional, pattern-seeking thinking and the way that most people to their own detriment don't ever examine which of those two they're doing. Hell, I still pretty regularly have trouble differentiating between thinking and reacting and I'm the kind of nerd who spends a lot of time thinking about how I think.

anonymars 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Ultimately capitalism "works", but only if externalities are incorporated into the price.

Hence vice taxes on liquor, cigarettes, the short-lived Bloomberg tax on soda. See also - carbon pricing.

What would that look like for social media, I don't know. If we're truly brainstorming, what if Facebook were forced to charge you cash money for usage beyond a half hour per day? Or past a certain amount of posting?

I'm well aware that politically this would die even faster than the soda tax... selling a policy is often more difficult and important than policy itself

9rx 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

> selling a policy is often more difficult and important than policy itself

Policy needs a villain. After all, if everyone were on the same page acting in good faith, you wouldn't need policy. The people could just start living the life they want to see.

Alcohol points to drunks, cigarettes points to those backlogging hospitals, carbon pricing points to "evil" oil companies trying to destroy the environment. Soda has tried pointing to the obese also backlogging hospitals, but, as you point out, not very successfully.

Your sweet grandmother uses social media and it makes her happy being able to see photos of her grandchildren. It is hard for the average person to find a villain in that.

anonymars 7 months ago | parent [-]

This is an interesting take, and dovetails with something I have long felt: that the Soviet Union pushed to the US to be better, without that competition we've lost something.

I was about to respond to the sibling comment: I think one of the missing ingredients is "shame" (in my example: shame of being bettered by the Soviets). After all, we managed to convince people to spend quite a sum going to the moon...

jerf 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

The main problem the vast majority of policy proposals for this sort of problem face is that the proposals almost invariably slip in the idea of some sort of human being, if not an entire population of humans, that is abstractly above the problem and can be trusted to administer the policy. But if that was the case, we often wouldn't have the problem in the first place.

It's really hard to policy-fix something that literally 99% of the population is doing. Who is going to propose it? Who is going to enforce it? Who is going to pay attention to it?

And to be clear, this is commiseration with you, not argument. I have no solution even in principle.

anonymars 7 months ago | parent [-]

I agree with you. I feel like it becomes the nebulous question of, "how do you change a culture?"

Honestly I think part of that historically came from "shame", but that's certainly out of fashion these days, plus people can just go to their social media bubble to escape it.

I'm starting to think religion was a useful ingredient too: "because God said so" has its uses. "God doesn't want you to mix fabrics, eat pork, or use social media"

thesuitonym 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Or, hear me out, what about "competition exists but I also get to vote and be represented." Where I live, there are two ISPs, the local cable conglomerate, and a telecom coop.

The cable company, as you might expect, is completely and utterly awful. They go for all of cable's greatest hits, from low introductory payments that explode after the first year, to service that is constantly down, to sending you to collections for equipment you returned. They do it all. The speeds are slow, and the customer service is non-existent.

The coop, on the other hand, is beyond delightful. The speed always exceeds what I'm paying for, and every couple of years they readjust their packages to give me more speed for the same price. Only three times in almost a decade have I had any problems with them: One was an outage that was caused by a natural disaster, and the other two were problems with my ONT that were fixed next day at no charge. Oh, and since it's a coop, I get a check every year as part of the profit sharing. For me, it only equates to about a free month of service, but it's still pretty nice.

So I guess the tl;dr of it all is that you don't need to get rid of free markets to have social control of things. And since the profits go to the people paying for the service, there's no incentive to extract extra value, so there's no real enshitification.

ryandrake 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

And, any time some company gets close to "give us what we want and need," the company will be bought by Facebook, or funded by VCs, and new ownership will "correct" the problem.

corobo 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Haha of course. I was probably just one of a mere few hundred million people using it in a way that brought me back to the algorithm so it got scrapped for underutilisation :(

philjohn 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They already send an email or push notification ... so yeah, there would be very little metric movement to justify this as having enough impact for year end PSC.

fallingknife 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

We don't pay them, so really why would they? I don't do work for people who don't pay me either.

jandrese 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

iCal feeds don't bring you into the site. The whole point of Facebook is to be a walled garden that discourages you from going elsewhere. You're lucky they are not like X and deprioritize external links. Or maybe they do, I have not tested it myself.

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/reaching_people

wwweston 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

The popular wisdom is that FB has deprioritized external links -- some accounts on FB are now posting an image with a blurb and then saying "link in comments." I don't know if they're doing it on rumor, official communication, or having tested clickthru rates themselves, but several of these have large enough media operations that all of those sources are plausible.

corobo 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

I would click the link in the event to go say happy birthday to the person! I guess I wasn't the norm though aye, it's big numbers that matter

sunnybeetroot 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Sounds like you use iOS? Add the birthday to the friend’s contact and it’ll appear in your calendar automatically. You’re welcome in advance.

corobo 8 months ago | parent [-]

Interesting idea and kinda really makes sense.. I guess at the time I just chucked them into todos as I have plenty of friction free ways to get tasks into Todoist haha.

I'll give it a go, nice one

dspillett 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Facebook is now a birthday-reminder

It isn't even good at that. I'll often see “it was [whoever]'s birthday yesterday” when I did login on the last couple of days, and it didn't bother to mention the fact then. Too many ads and pointless reals to show me on those days, to have space to insert the now/upcoming birthday reminder, presumably.

mrspuratic 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"mbasic.facebook.com" was a vastly simpler UI, and had notably less noise content. Sometimes "back" navigation even worked properly. They killed that last year :/

Were it not for distant family using it, I would almost certainly download my content and nuke my account.

endemic 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Messaging and group chats are the only real social media now

This is accurate as far as I'm concerned. Interacting directly with actual friends; no ads or clickbait content injected.

reverendsteveii 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I was thrilled to find out that I can block facebook.com in my etc/hosts and still have access to messenger. Hard limiting the time I spend being "social" with robots and hostile outsiders has gone from being a good idea to being a survival strategy as we got further into the industrialization of the attention economy.

xyst 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Anybody worth keeping in contact with, I have their phone number.

The only use for Facebook is for the marketplace.

the_af 8 months ago | parent [-]

Sadly for me, there's another use case for Facebook: special interest groups (as in niche groups for hobbies).

When the Great Migration away from phpbb forums and bulletin boards happened, lots of these groups moved to Facebook. I loathed it, but joining the migration was the only way of keeping up with stuff that interested me.

Now there's another Great Migration to Discord, which I won't follow. Real-time chat simply triggers my FOMO and is stressful to me. So any community that moves primarily to Discord will lose me as a member. I suppose nobody will miss me though.

diggan 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Instagram and TikTok are also trending towards content consumption

Huh? They were explicitly built for that purpose, not "trending towards". Without content consumption, those platforms are nothing.

KeplerBoy 8 months ago | parent [-]

I guess he meant content produced by "professional" content creators with the only goal of earning money instead of interesting pictures from your friends' life.

At least that's how I experience Instagram these days. It's a chat app where people send each other content made by others in the DMs.

Very few of the people I know personally have posted in the last few years, but most of them seem to casually use the app to explore whatever the algorithm shows them.

boringg 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Actually it's biggest value is marketplace though the scammers know that too.

wintermutestwin 8 months ago | parent [-]

Marketplace is the absolute worst UX I could imagine.

slt2021 8 months ago | parent [-]

highly overpaid Facebook engineers must be forced to use Marketplace to try to buy their cars, instead of buying from a dealer.

maybe that way they would improve things a bit

yieldcrv 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

(now as in 10 years ago)

bentcorner 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Discord are where the kids are at. But with them going public it's going to enshittify quickly and it's only a matter of time before they move onto something new.