| ▲ | jadar 10 hours ago |
| The tragedy of the modern library is that no one has the attention span for good books. Libraries are getting rid of the classics to make room for new books, the majority of which are not worth the paper they’re printed on. We would do well to heed C.S. Lewis’ call to read more old books for every new book that we read. |
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| ▲ | makeitdouble 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I personally think the focus on attention span is a red herring. Many good books don't require that much attention span, and putting the onus on the reader to like and focus on a book that is supposed to be good feels kinda backward. Given that people binge watch whole tv series and still read a ton online there is a desire, and probably ways to properly reach the audience. Not all classics need to be liked forever, tastes change, and the stories are retold in different manners anyway. I'd be fine with people reading Romeo and Juliet as a mastodon published space opera if it brings them joy and insights. |
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| ▲ | mingus88 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Even a short and engaging chapter book will require someone to focus for more than 10 minutes on the text I have been online since the early web and have seen how much content has changed to engage people. It’s all short form videos and posts with a 4th grade vocabulary now. If you post anything longer I have seen people actually get upset about it. People may binge a series but they are still on their phones half of the time scrolling for dopamine. I am trying to train my own children to seek out difficult things to consume and balance out the engagement bait. It’s hard these days. Everything is engineered to hijack your attention | | |
| ▲ | stevenAthompson 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > People may binge a series but they are still on their phones half of the time scrolling for dopamine. This. Both movies and series are now FAR less popular (and profitable) than video games, and video games are far less popular than social media. Even the minority that still enjoys legacy media enjoys it WHILE consuming other media. Movie theaters are in as much trouble as libraries, and blaming either of them for their decline in popularity without mentioning the root causes would be myopic. The cost of all this is that nuance and the ability to have a single train of thought that lasts longer than the length of a TikTok video or tweet are dying. | | |
| ▲ | makeitdouble 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The cost of all this is that nuance and the ability to have a single train of thought People aren't watching TikToks while video gaming. The rise of video games, and the success of narrative ones, should tell us that people engage with the content and focus. For hours at a time. But they need to care about it, expect way more quality and are way less tolerant of mediocrity. That's sure not great for Hollywood producers, cry me a river. Libraries are reinventing themselves in many places, IMHO they'll happily outlive movie theaters by a few centuries. | | |
| ▲ | stevenAthompson 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > People aren't watching TikToks while video gaming. I'm aware that the plural of anecdote is not data, but I can say from personal experience that most of the people I know pick up their phones whenever an unskippable cut scene appears on screen. Many, many people no longer have the patience for narrative in any form and as a consequence literacy rates have been declining for years. > Libraries are reinventing themselves in many places They have no choice. People can't read anymore. Fifty four percent of Americans now read below the sixth grade level. | |
| ▲ | milesrout 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | People definitely watch YouTube videos while playing video games and play games on their phones while watching TV/movies. Narrative video games are a tiny and obscure niche. |
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| ▲ | alabastervlog 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’m not sure if it’s true but I’ve heard that the reason so many streaming shows are like twice as long as they should be to best-serve their stories, and are so repetitive, is because they’re written for an audience that’s using their phones while they “watch”. |
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| ▲ | EgregiousCube 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I wonder if it's not that people are getting dumber or less able to hold attention; rather, that everyone is being more exposed to lowest common denominator material because of efficient distribution. Reader's Digest was always there on the shelf at the store and was very commercially successful. Most people who consumed more advanced content ignored it. | |
| ▲ | makeitdouble 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It’s all short form videos and posts with a 4th grade vocabulary now We've had more publicly available educational content than ever with 40+ minutes videos finding their public. Podcasts have brought the quality of audio content to a new level, people pay to get additional content. People are paying for publications like TheVerge, Medium and newsletter also became a viable business model. And they're not multitasking when watching YouTube or reading on their phone. That's where I'd put the spotlight. And the key to all of it is, content length is often not dictated by ads (Sponsors pay by the unit, paid member don't get the ads) but by how long it needs to be. If on the other hand we want to keep it bleak, I'd remind you that the before-the-web TV was mostly atrocious and aimed at people keeping it on while they do the dishes. The bulk of books sold where "Men come from Mars" airport books and movies were so formulaic I had a friends not pausing them when going to the bathroom without missing much. Basically we accepted filler as a fact of life, and we're now asking the you generation while they're not bitting the bullet. And honestly, I can still read research papers but I completely lost tolerance for 400 pages book that could have been a blog post. |
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| ▲ | jimbob45 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’ve come to the same conclusion after years of feeling like the idiot for not being able to sit through books. If people aren’t making it through your book, they might have a short attention span but your book also might just be bloated, unclear, or uninteresting. It may even not have set expectations well enough. As Brandon Sanderson says, it’s very easy to skip out on the last half of Into The Woods if you don’t know who Stephen Sondheim is as a writer. | | |
| ▲ | stevenAthompson 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Early in life I learned the rule: If one person is a jerk, he's just a jerk. If you feel like everyone is a jerk, you are probably the one being a jerk. The same is true of books. If you think one book is bad, it's probably the book. If you think all/most books are slow you should work on your attention span. | | |
| ▲ | makeitdouble 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Shouldn't we take into account that the industry is also famous for being a monetization path for bloggers, pundits and grifters, for whom a book deal means jackpot; combined with a minimum word count pushing authors/ghost writers to pad their work to reach an average page volume ? I mostly read non-fiction, so the landscape is probably grimmer, but actual good books aren't that many, and I feel that has been a common wisdom for centuries. Except we're trying push that fact under the carpet as already fewer people are buying books. | | |
| ▲ | stevenAthompson 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | There are more books now than ever, and we've been producing books in vast numbers for hundreds of years. Even if the vast majority were garbage there would still be more great books available than could be read in several lifetimes. Have you considered trying to optimize the way you discover your next read? It almost sounds like you're getting your recommendations from social media, and that it isn't really working out well for you. |
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| ▲ | toast0 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Most libraries track circulation of their catalog. If nobody is using the classics, they're going to get weeded. Most libraries have limited shelf space, and it's best used for things that people are using. Archival can be part of a library too, but I think a reasonable tradeoff is interlibrary loans, public catalogs, and considering copies in other libraries while weeding. Some library systems can also move items to non-public stacks which may be less space constrained, and only access them on request. |
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| ▲ | bigthymer 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This has been an ongoing discussion within libraries for more than a hundred years not a recent issue. Should libraries be a place with classics to uplift people or popular books that people want to read even if they are low quality? |
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| ▲ | jasonlotito 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The tragedy of the modern library is that no one has the attention span for old books. Fixed that to mean what you say. Luckily, people still have the attention for good books. Which is why libraries still stock good books, classic or otherwise. They also stock books that people want to read. Which might seem odd until you realize that libraries are there for the community to use. However, you are free to setup a library that stores books that no one reads. |
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| ▲ | nathan_compton 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think this is a somewhat wrong framing, and its also shitty to blame libraries for this shift. Tech companies, for the most part, are responsible for the destruction of attention spans, if that has really happened. And I'd be happy to bet that by whatever criteria you choose to select there are more great books written per year now than in 1240 or whatever time you think they only wrote great shit. Its just that now there is much more to wade through and the media environment is totally different. At any rate, I just think that its a very strange thing to do to use "old" as a substitute for "good." There are tons of old books that are moronic and if the population of the world back then had been the same as now there would be tons more. |
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| ▲ | add-sub-mul-div 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| People don't even have the attention span for tweets. You see people asking grok to summarize the points of whoever they're fighting with. Try going back in time and explaining to Neil Postman that people today find watching TV to be a chore that needs abbreviation or summarization. |
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| ▲ | geerlingguy 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "Grok summarize this comment" I kid you not, I've had people ask Grok to summarize a 3-4 tweet thread I posted. | |
| ▲ | alganet 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 40 minutes or so? You guys are getting lazy. I expected an AI connection in less than 10 minutes after the post. | | |
| ▲ | add-sub-mul-div 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are you being too passive aggressive to say directly that you're offended by commentary about AI that disagrees with your stance, or do you really keep track of these timings? | | |
| ▲ | alganet 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | My stance is chaotic good, and HN keeps track of timings for me, I just have to look. |
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| ▲ | KittenInABox 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I find that old books can often take away more than they give to me. They often have outdated ideas on women or race and are usually far clumsier with depicting homeless, disabled, or sick people. Engagement with fans of old books often is a set of very sheepish defensiveness when I point these out. |
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| ▲ | nathan_compton 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're lucky these days if all you get is sheepish defensiveness and not revanchist conservatism. |
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