| ▲ | psunavy03 3 days ago |
| People can rant and rail about America's car-centric culture, or they could just accept that the culture is what it is and work to mitigate the negative aspects of it. I don't get why so many people feel they need to tilt at windmills this way. |
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| ▲ | screye 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| That's the issue. You can't mitigate it. Especially when even the lowest hanging fruits (eg: protected bike lines) face similar opposition as any radical change. America already bulldozed through walkable streetcar towns for cars less than a century ago. So, the precedent for the change is there. It's not like cars are the way of the ancestors As another comment mentioned, car infrastructure is an unsustainable spend. America is entering an era of expensive labor, lower fertility and bi-polar super powers. Therefore, unsustainable systems are beginning to give. It's tempting to call car centrism a personal preference. But North America stands alone against a near-global consensus on what urban infrastructure should look like. |
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| ▲ | parpfish 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Another potential factor driving the US’s reckoning with car centric development is the aging of the boomer generation. At some point, there’s going to be a large number of cities where a majority of homeowners are too old to drive. | | |
| ▲ | hx8 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > At some point, there’s going to be a large number of cities where a majority of homeowners are too old to drive. If you're too old to drive you're probably also not in the best position to walk far or walk while carrying shopping/groceries. Combined with the obesity epidemic many people simply aren't healthy enough to walk 1km. | | |
| ▲ | mitthrowaway2 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Mobility challenged people can take electric wheelchairs along sidewalks and bike routes, and board buses and trains with level boarding. These usually have storage for groceries. Some elderly people are physically capable of driving a car but can be a danger on the road. |
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| ▲ | nebula8804 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Probably why so many are moving to 'retirement communities' so they can downgrade to golf carts. You can take the car away from the person but the soul of the boomer is the automobile. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7leRLIxw7oc | |
| ▲ | njarboe 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Tesla FSD is already very good. Maybe a good thing the Boomer generation can do is to help make automatic cars legal. |
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| ▲ | itishappy 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > People can rant and rail about America's car-centric culture, or they could just accept that the culture is what it is and work to mitigate the negative aspects of it. Honest question: What's the difference? Mitigating the negative aspects involves making others aware of the negative aspects, but many people see that as ranting and railing. What does a productive conversation look like? |
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| ▲ | jimbob45 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | People acknowledge that America is bigger than their country with challenging geographical features. They also stop comparing their best country (UK) with America’s worst state or, even worse, the entire US landmass. | | |
| ▲ | bananalychee 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | China has a high-speed rail network whose size spans about half of the United States'. Some old US cities had better transit systems in the 1950s than they do now. No one expects every US city to be on the level of Tokyo, but there is no excuse for being so far behind. | | |
| ▲ | markus_zhang 3 days ago | parent [-] | | China has a different distribution of population I think. But yeah I agree the US can use some better railways. Then again I shiver at the cost. | | |
| ▲ | nebula8804 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Forget about the cost. Do you take public rail? I used to and even if the trains get 1000% better the people are still the same: talking loud, no respect for others, just all in their own bubbles. This is the polar opposite of Europe. I've taken even the run down ugly german trains that they still run on irregular routes and even though the trains are antiquated, they make sense and get the job done. People are respectful even if the train is packed. I wouldn't want to go back to trains in America other than for sparse occasional trips. I often look at maps like this and think maybe that would be amazing: https://i.imgur.com/srMhE1X.png But then i'd probably just take an airplane for most trips because 1-2 hrs of leg cramps with a typically quiet passenger crew is better then a misbehaved train carriage. Fixing the trains is not fixing the society. The trains are probably broken because the society is broken. | | |
| ▲ | kjkjadksj 3 days ago | parent [-] | | You can’t get away from it in this country short of moving into the woods. One of the neighbors has a motorcycle. Literally like clockwork when he comes home from work it shakes my apartment and sets off the same three aftermarket alarms from cars parked on the street. Every time. Last apartment neighbor a floor below me was into house music. Here even the army flies ospreys and chinooks overhead that shake everything for a good 30 seconds until they pass; I never knew a helicopter could be so loud. You can’t win. You have to learn to just roll over and take it. | | |
| ▲ | nebula8804 3 days ago | parent [-] | | People try. They move to neighborhoods with higher wealth. People hate to think about it but that is a indicator that reduces these kinds of nonsense things. They use cars instead of public transit and prefer politicians that vote for more of that. They are not even going out in public spaces as much anymore. I do concede that these are not perfect solutions and bring their own issues, so I guess you can't win. I am not sure if it was always like this though. |
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| ▲ | tmnvdb 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What are these "challenging geographic features"? | |
| ▲ | nlarew 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Total strawman argument. The size of the country has almost no bearing on the way we develop our towns and cities, subsidize car production, assume/require car ownership in public policy, etc. It's also quite the stretch to claim the UK as the best country in the EU and even more to claim that it doesn't also have a car culture. And it's not just "America's worst state", the vast majority of US town and cities are car dependent. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Any time someone uses the excuse that “the size of the USA” prevents this or that, then ask why New Jersey can’t do this or that. Some states are the same size and density of the average European country. | | |
| ▲ | nebula8804 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | NJ has an extensive train network. Its crap for the following reasons(only referring to main interstate rail, their city light rails are different): 1. The stock is divided into two sets: single decker trains that are falling apart but are still better than new stock because they were designed during an era where there was actual consideration given to comfort. They are old and run down but more comfy. The new double decker trains are a design by committee nightmare: they have uncomfortable molded chairs made mostly out of plastic, super cold, noisier due to the terrible shifting whine of the electric motors, and now poorly maintained (god help you if you have to use their rest rooms). 2. They are constantly stopping due to priority given to amtrak and commercial rail. In the best case scenario the train takes ~45 mins to get from central NJ to NYC with stops. For about ~20 miles of track distance, that averages out to ~29-31mph. If Amtrack stops you that time is extended. 3. Very slow speeds due to old track technology. 4. Rising ticket costs for the same lousy service. (~$21 round trip from central NJ to NYC) I guess being able to have a digital ticket helps? (It probably helps them more than it helps you) 5. Pure depression because outside the main routes going into NYC and Hoboken, the dregs of society are the only ones riding these trains. This really grates on you if you take the train for years like I did. 6. Recently, they couldn't even provide working windows so people can see the 'beauty' of NJ. ( To be fair after all the TikTok meme videos called them out on this they finally got embarrassed enough to start replacing them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-a3r6i4hiQ ) It all priorities. People in the US just dont want mass rail over other priorities. The people who do are internet keyboard warriors. | |
| ▲ | tmnvdb 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's obviously nonsense. Nobody is walking from Paris to Berlin. But you can walk in Paris and Berlin. | | |
| ▲ | mlinhares 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Don't forget one of the most famous and visited destinations in the country is a walkable neighborhood served by great public transportation and uses a rat as a mascot. | | |
| ▲ | nebula8804 3 days ago | parent [-] | | You looked at that transportation recently? It is collapsing due to legacy, graft, and cost overruns. I don't presume you are European but I HATE when they use this system as an example or public transit that works in America. Its a dump. The worst trains in France and Germany run miles around it. | | |
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| ▲ | pyfon 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They can catch a train from Paris to Berlin (and every disco they'll be in) | | |
| ▲ | tmnvdb 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Most people would not. Paris - Berlin is dominated by flying. |
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| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, Werner Herzog, possibly. |
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| ▲ | pinkmuffinere 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Your criticisms are absolutely right. I upvoted you, but just fyi I think your response may come off as too blunt/rude, and get “downvotes”. It doesn’t really matter here, but maybe helpful to know in general, if you didn’t already. | | |
| ▲ | nlarew 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Fair enough! You're right it's a bit blunt. I didn't take very much time to edit it. Hopefully folks are able to look past any gruffness and find the substance in it. |
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| ▲ | rsynnott 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | ... I'm not sure many would agree that the UK, of all places, has good public transport. _London_ does, but it more or less ends there. (Possibly you mean by some other metric, but I'm struggling to think of _any_ metric by which the UK could be said to be the best country in Europe. Sitcoms, possibly. It does a good sitcom. Even outside London!) |
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| ▲ | kortilla 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You’re assuming all of the negative aspects require giving up cars to solve | | |
| ▲ | itishappy 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think we need to give up cars entirely, but I also don't think we'll be able to address the negative aspects without some amount of change. An example: I live roughly 200m from the Costco in the center of town, but there's a major 4 lane road between us. Walking would be so convenient, but it's so much safer to drive. A footbridge would address this without impacting drivers. I have no intentions of giving up my car, but this particular activity would be so much nicer without it! | |
| ▲ | xanderstrike 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The simple geometry problem of how much space cars take up is arguably the worst now (given tailpipe emissions are on their way out), and there is no solution to that outside of fewer and much smaller cars. |
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| ▲ | bobthepanda 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The problem is that mitigation of any kind is an affront to car driving culture. One big problem people have, for example, is that we just focus so much on roads and there is literally no safe infrastructure for other kinds of people; but drivers also balk at using taxpayer money to build said infrastructure, particularly if it is perceived as reducing driver convenience even by mere seconds. Or even pausing the construction of new, dangerous infrastructure. |
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| ▲ | xanderstrike 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| 95% of people drive because 95% of transportation funding goes to enabling that choice. People at large are rational and will make rational transportation choices given incentives. The incentives are all aligned towards driving right now because that benefits the auto industry. You cannot make assertions about how Americans behave, "culturally," based on their transportation choices because these choices are not happening in a vacuum. Case in point: when Americans visit Disneyland, or NYC, or Amsterdam, they do not typically insist on driving through those places. |
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| ▲ | nebula8804 3 days ago | parent [-] | | You seem to be implying there is something nefarious about how the incentives were created. Yes there has been efforts to push cars over other options and thats well documented but you can't just ignore that part of the incentive naturally leaned towards utilizing the large amount of available land. Its just human nature to use all available resources if they are available to you. |
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| ▲ | janalsncm 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| “Tilting at windmills” makes it sound like a pointless and impossible task. I don’t even agree that this is a culture problem. It’s an infrastructure problem wrapped up in tyranny of the minority NIMBY politics. But even if we accept your premise that American “culture” prefers cars (rather than being a result of decades of expanding as fast and as cheaply as possible across the country), culture can change. It does change. |
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| ▲ | iambateman 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Because 40,000 people a year die on roads as a result of their design. Please don’t accept 100 extra funerals a day. It can and will get better. |
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| ▲ | mantas 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Changing road design is not necessarily a cultural change from driving. My country had very bad traffic deaths record. few decades later, traffic is much more intense and there're many more cars, but traffic deaths are waaaaaay down. Thanks to better infrastructure, better cars and better culture especially when it comes to drink and drive... |
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| ▲ | dkarl 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Policy is decided by people. "Car-centric culture" is just a description of the material status quo, much of which was built by people who are dead, who have changed their minds about cars, or who see different conditions in their city and now want a different approach. An orientation towards adopting new ways of living when the old ones become impractical or harmful can be just as part of a person's "culture" as a piece of technology. |
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| ▲ | tmnvix 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > Policy is decided by people. Well yes, corporations are considered 'people'. I think it was some of these 'people' that tore up the streetcar networks in order to replace them with buses. |
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| ▲ | harimau777 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The problem is that there's not really a way to mitigate those negative aspects. Car centric culture is almost universally miserable. |
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| ▲ | toomuchtodo 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| So, I think the problem is that the culture is unsustainable [1] [2]. Look at new vehicle prices [3]. Look at the operating cost of a vehicle [4]. For many, currently, this cost is at least if not more than $1000/month (car note, insurance, fuel, etc) and very roughly, ~60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Vehicle repos [5] and auto loan delinquencies [6] are hitting historical highs. America built a structurally deficient urban planning model. In Iowa, for example, they are allowing roads to go back to gravel because they lack the resources to maintain the status quo of road infra [7]. Also, consider rural america continues to wither and clear out [8]. This is all important ground truth to have to mitigate the negative aspects as you say, versus throwing good money after bad. Maybe we could encourage folks to migrate to college towns from the exurbs with subsidies and job guarantees, versus them staying in place while where they exist today rapidly declines. They would then continue to support the town as residents through their social security or pension income they would spend locally through retirement until death. New urban builds take decades while retrofits and reconfigurations take much less time, effort, and fiat. "Skate to where the puck is going to be." [1] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2024/7/22/what-strong-to... [2] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2022/9/20/the-suburbs-ar... [3] https://www.financialsamurai.com/average-new-car-price/ [4] https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/total-co... [5] https://www.pymnts.com/transportation/2025/car-repos-hit-lev... [6] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-06/late-car-... | https://archive.today/dfCjJ [7] https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2024/03/11/who-will-be-left-... [8] https://carsey.unh.edu/publication/rural-america-lost-popula... (draw your attention to "Figure 2. Population Change In Nonmetropolitan Counties, 2010 To 2020") (think in systems) |
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| ▲ | the_snooze 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | To bring it down to a real and concrete case, we can do so much better than each family ferrying their children to school/activites, then driving everywhere in single-occupant cars. That's a world where children and senior citizens have greatly reduced independence and community. How would it look like if there were reduced day-to-day car dependency? Maybe something like this: a "walking schoolbus" where senior citizens and schoolchildren connect with one another as they get exercise on the way to school. Who wouldn't want that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeYBL5u97c8 | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I really like the Barcelona Superblocks model [1] for existing urban environments, but subsidizing families to relocate closer to schools is also an option imho. You have to find the intersection of what is politically palatable and the resources available; the next 100 years is going to see structural demographic decline, declining working cohort participation, less growth and productivity, continuing rapid fertility rate decline, declining household sizes, etc so creativity and flexibility will be required (imho). I am also a fan of what Culdesac [2] is doing, and is a pattern to be scaled. “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” got us cars, and I think the new question is "How do we deliver locality and mobility for quality lives without cars, when possible?" Cars are not going away, but we should not build for them specifically as if they were the default option, as this cost burdens the future with potentially unnecessary and expensive personal mobility and infrastructure obligations. Even today, they are unaffordable for a substantial population of people, based on the evidence in my comment above. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?q=barcelona+superblocks [2] https://culdesac.com/ | | |
| ▲ | crooked-v 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > subsidizing families to relocate closer to schools Without changing the US' urban model to actually allow more homes, all that will do is keep the status quo and make everything more expensive. | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 3 days ago | parent [-] | | The US has a housing shortage [1] (~3M-8M units) that will persist long into the future due to a shortage of tradespeople [2], artificial land scarcity due to new builders constraining supply [3], etc. Upzoning and YIMBY are important components in increasing housing supply and affordability, but relocating folks closer to critical social systems (schools for families with school age children, hospitals and care facilities for seniors) versus expecting everyone to have a car or expecting school bus service when that transportation system
is already reaching failure [4] [5] is also of some measurable value (imho). Remember, fertility rate is rapidly declining in almost every state [6] [7], so there should be fewer children in each subsequent educational cohort and families requiring locality near schools should trend downward over time (demographics are tricky and can change, so lots of assumptions relying on current trends as of this comment). A potential solution is for cities and communities to issue bonds, purchase housing near schools when the economics are favorable (ie try to avoid overpaying), and hold it as public affordable housing for families (perhaps in concert with upzoning; buy adjacent parcels, demo, and rebuild as more dense multi family). Political will is the wildcard. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42277358 (citations) [2] https://www.haas.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/Howard_Wang... (pages 22-23, 27 specifically) [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VryFaFsKhVE [4] https://www.epi.org/blog/the-school-bus-driver-shortage-rema... [5] https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/states-... [6] https://usafacts.org/articles/how-have-us-fertility-and-birt... [7] https://usafacts.org/articles/what-will-americas-population-... | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Additional citations: Construction Capacity: America's Diminishing Housing Pipeline - https://www.governance.fyi/p/construction-capacity-americas-... Housing Supply and Housing Affordability - https://www.nber.org/papers/w33694 ("The decline in housing affordability over recent decades has promoted an enhanced interest in housing supply. This chapter presents descriptive evidence about the evolution of us housing prices, quantities, and regulations since 1980, indicating that supply constraints appear to be increasingly binding. We then provide an overview of the various approaches used to model construction and land development for homogeneous and heterogeneous housing in static and dynamic contexts to understand housing supply. Our treatment incorporates empirical implementation and policy implications throughout. Finally, we provide an overview of quantitative evidence on the consequences of relaxing various types of supply constraints.") | |
| ▲ | cyberax 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The US has a housing shortage [1] (~3M-8M units) It doesn't. It really, really doesn't. The per-capita housing units are close to the historical highs. And per-household stats are _even_ _better_: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=15tRv What the US has is the density-despair spiral going. It's creating denser and denser pits of despair in the urban centers via economic forces. After all, what use is housing in Iowa if you _have_ to live in New York? Because there are no jobs for you in Iowa. And housing in New York will NEVER be cheap. | | |
| ▲ | crooked-v 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Per capita housing numbers in a country with as much empty land as the US are useless and deceptive. | | |
| ▲ | cyberax 2 days ago | parent [-] | | No, they are not. It indicates that the problem is not the lack of housing. |
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| ▲ | ryandrake 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don’t think many US parents would accept their child independently walking or bicycling to school, even over short distances. The Stranger Danger mainstream media has them absolutely terrified that their kid is going to be kidnapped as soon as they leave their front doors. | | |
| ▲ | mitthrowaway2 3 days ago | parent [-] | | The real danger is them getting hit by a car driven by another parent dropping off their kid at school. It's a difficult equilibrium to break out of. |
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| ▲ | xp84 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Just to consider this on a small scale where, it would actually need to be implemented, one neighborhood at a time, I live in a medium-sized town where the school district has chosen to reject free land that developers attempted to donate to the district for the construction of schools, in favor of just assigning the families who move into these new-build homes to the schools in the other part of town where schools have ample capacity due to the large 4+ bedroom single-family homes mostly being owned and occupied by empty-nest Boomers. We live somewhere in between the "new builds" part of town and the area that has a bunch of schools, so the walk from our neighborhood to our assigned (and closest) middle school is only 2.5 miles, a 55 minute walk with 155 ft elevation change. This walk takes you across a road with a 60MPH speed limit, basically an expressway. The elementary school is a bit closer, only a 40 minutes, 2 mile walk, but same expressway. Oh, and they don't even offer a school bus of any kind. I suppose the gen-x parents killed that idea off 25 years ago because they were so worried their kids would be out of direct supervision even walking to a bus stop, so each child is chaufferred door to door, rain or shine, until 16 when they receive their own cars. I agree with you that all this is absurd. Kids are capable of walking to school and shouldn't have to leave a medium-sized neighborhood to do so. But significant demolition of neighborhoods and construction of schools, local grocery markets, etc. is the only prescription for our ills that would provide anything resembling an alternative to cars for the residents of the tract homes that make up a significant part of our car-dependent suburbs. This is why I think whoever upthread is arguing that people aren't exactly being reasonable expecting the America we inherited from the 20th century to stop stalling and transform itself into 1,000 Amsterdams. Even though the places that share that awesome non-car infra are highly sought-after. | | |
| ▲ | cyberax 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > I agree with you that all this is absurd. It's not. It's the right design idea. But it's just missing one factor that will make it far superior to ANY other urban model: self-driving vehicles. Imagine children being able to just get a self-driving taxi and ride to school by themselves. Or to other locations. All while having plenty of space at home, a yard to play, etc. | | |
| ▲ | xp84 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm not so convinced that I'd prefer to live isolated and "just" get a robotaxi for every excursion anyone wants to do. I'd rather my kids walked about a quarter mile to school with several neighbors. Exercise and being outside are good! Even assuming we turned smarter and built clean nuclear plants everywhere, just all the paving of roads, tires etc. takes a lot of resources. | | |
| ▲ | cyberax 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > I'm not so convinced that I'd prefer to live isolated and "just" get a robotaxi for every excursion anyone wants to do. I'd rather my kids walked about a quarter mile to school with several neighbors. Exercise and being outside are good! I believe that robotaxis will enable totally new behaviors. For example, if you don't live immediately near a park, you won't often go there. It's just too tiresome to use public transit to visit a park just for a short walk/run/play. And personal cars are not available for children. With robocars, you'll be able to text your friend: "hi, meet you at the park corner in 10", jump into a car, and arrive there. This will have zero friction, so it's far more likely to become a habitual behavior. > Even assuming we turned smarter and built clean nuclear plants everywhere, just all the paving of roads, tires etc. takes a lot of resources. Ha. One line of Manhattan subway now costs as much as 1500 miles of modern 6-lane freeway. Urban construction is EXPENSIVE. | | |
| ▲ | tmnvdb 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I live in Vienna and people take public transport to nature all the time. | | |
| ▲ | cyberax a day ago | parent [-] | | Define "all the time" and "people". | | |
| ▲ | tmnvdb 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | I understand from your question you struggle to comprehend that this is possible. I assure you it really is. People who have money take the train. People who own cars take the train. The modal split for Vienna generally is about 25% by car. I would guess more than 50% for public transport for journeys to nearby nature. The trains in Austria are excellent: safe, clean and very punctual. If you get in a train to nature you will be surrounded by people with overpriced hiking gear. |
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| ▲ | kortilla 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >In Iowa, for example, they are allowing roads to go back to gravel because they lack the resources to maintain the status quo of road infra [7]. A gravel road to a dying town doesn’t seem like a failure mode to me. They don’t build train lines to dying towns in Europe either. | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 3 days ago | parent [-] | | In my comment, I am using it as signal wrt infra cost affordability. I agree it is not a bad solution as population declines continue where it occurs, versus having no road. Look at infrastructure cost projections to understand if it is within the light cone of economic affordability. If it can't be paid for with a combination of taxes and debt, it isn't possible. |
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| ▲ | scarface_74 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No one is forced to buy a car at the median price. You can buy these cars new under $25K. Toyota Corolla LE ($23,460), Hyundai Elantra SE ($23,025), Kia K4 LX ($21,990), Nissan Sentra S ($21,590), Mazda3 2.5 S ($24,150), Subaru Impreza Base ($23,495). I make decent money and I would never spend more than $25K on a car. Of course you can also get used cars with low mileage. As far as people in rural areas. They deserve every negative thing that they keep voting for. | |
| ▲ | renewiltord 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | These sources are garbage. This paycheck to paycheck thing is just nonsense. This is just a gish gallop. | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I am open to other sources of these metrics, please feel free to provide them. | | |
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