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jefftk 4 days ago

This is just obviously false. If you want to claim that Google's impact has been on balance negative we can certainly argue about that, but some clearly positive things include:

* Massive security improvements, including encryption (pushing HTTPS throughout the stack, funding Let's Encrypt, trackers on HTTPS adoption), site isolation, Project Zero, certificate transparency, pushing CSPs, authentication standards.

* Large speed improvements, including V8, HTTP/2, HTTP/3, Brotli.

* Web standards, including work on HTML5, JS standardization, web assembly, CSS flexbox and grid, webrtc.

(Disclosure: I worked on web stuff at Google 2012-2022)

zzo38computer 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I disagree and I think that some of these things are some problems.

Forcing HTTPS was not really the best idea (and HSTS is bad for other reasons too). Let's Encrypt is a way to get a certificate easily in case you do want or need HTTPS, although it does lead to problems, such as some businesses will have certificates that do not contain the identification their address and that stuff, and some more problems. In addition, I think the design of Let's Encrypt automated certificates is not very good either.

I had not known what is Project Zero, but Wikipedia says they find vulnerabilities and documenting them so that you can defend against it, and this is helpful.

The authentication standards they made up aren't that good either. If you already have HTTPS, then you can use client certificates, which has many benefits and some more security compared with many of the other methods being used (e.g. TOTP) as well as not needing JavaScripts and cookies and that stuff.

V8 is not bad, but the designs that need this much speed (not only V8 but also HTTP/3 etc) means the design is probably already excessive. Making or using a browser should not require this for everything.

HTML5 has some good ideas as well as some bad ones, and so do the other web standards. But older versions have their own problems too. I also think they put too many things in the document and the script and styles in the document, that should better belong in separate user settings.

I also think that believing that JSON and Unicode and that stuff that they use, are not really that good either. (I think DER is better than JSON in many ways, anyways)

nottorp 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> pushing HTTPS throughout the stack

Barriers to entry for self hosted sites. Easier to host with Google now.

> Large speed improvements, including V8, HTTP/2, HTTP/3, Brotli.

HTTP/whatever was done only for Google's benefit.

> Web standards, including work on HTML5, JS standardization, web assembly, CSS flexbox and grid, webrtc.

If they're so standard why do people develop for Chrome and ignore other browsers?

jefftk 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Barriers to entry for self hosted sites. Easier to host with Google now.

Let's Encrypt (which Google helped fund) is the opposite of a barrier to entry. Free domain-validated fully automated HTTPS cert distribution wasn't a thing, and now it is. It makes it way easier to self host in a post-PRISM world.

Also, Google does a tiny fraction of overall web hosting.

> HTTP/whatever was done only for Google's benefit.

Your claim is that everything Google has done has been worse for the web, so you don't get to pick individual tech that's clearly good (ex: V8) and ignore it. And whether things were done for Google's benefit is also irrelevant: the claim is about outcomes.

On the specific question of HTTP/2 and HTTP/3, these have made large improvements in end-to-end loading times across the web, including when Google is at neither end of the connection, and especially for high latency connections like mobile.

> If they're so standard why do people develop for Chrome and ignore other browsers?

All of the things I listed are widely supported and fully standardized.

There are other parts of the web platform that aren't, and that does push people to Chrome, but that's not what we're talking about.

Again, if you'd like to claim Google's impact has been bad on net that's much more arguable, but your claim is way stronger than that.

nottorp 4 days ago | parent [-]

> Free domain-validated fully automated HTTPS cert distribution wasn't a thing, and now it is.

Free compulsory ...

warkdarrior 4 days ago | parent [-]

It is not compulsory. The browser may warn about lack of HTTPS, but that's about it.

And I won't visit such HTTP-only site since it indicates the site owner does not care to protect my (meta)data, but they probably don't want my clicks.

nottorp 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

And would you think this way if they didn't spam the "accept the risk and continue" scareware?

Why is it phrased as the risk is coming from the web site, when the risk actually comes from the backbone and whoever is able to intercept your communications?

cookie_monsta 4 days ago | parent [-]

(paraphrasing from memory because it's a while since I've seen it)

> Your connection is insecure. Information you send could be intercepted by attackers. Accept the risk and continue?

Explains the problem in simple terms. Calls out the website for being lazy and careless. Gives you the option to proceed if you don't care.

Why is this scareware and how would you word it?

4 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
charcircuit 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>If they're so standard why do people develop for Chrome and ignore other browsers?

Because in practice each browser is a separate app platform with support of different features and with different performance profiles. From a business perspective for a business to expand to a new app platform there must be some sort of justification to do so. As an extreme example think of why don't websites also remake their site on Roblox for example? Supporting a product on an app platform well is expensive and not all platforms can justify that expense.

nottorp 4 days ago | parent [-]

But ... i thought Google was standardizing the web.

Would they be introducing features to their browser at a speed no one else can match just to create a lock in effect instead?

And are those features benefiting every site or are they targeted towards Google properties?

charcircuit 4 days ago | parent [-]

They are standardizing the web.

>just to create a lock in effect instead?

No, developers requesting features and expressing pain points are a major motivator of changes.

>And are those features benefiting every site or are they targeted towards Google properties?

They are targeted towards web developers to enable them to create good experiences for end users.

neuroelectron 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The way that monopolies dominate is by stagnating tech. IT tech. The driver of our economy. You're missing a decade plus of killed advancements through acquisition and extermination. The efficacy gains are theirs, we just get to larp as being better by using them. The idea that HTML5, JS standardization, web assembly etc. are important is ignoring how they are simply abstractions that maintain the status quo and add complexity that only serves builds their moat.

RSS is probably the best example. This is massively more efficient than any other thing you mentioned, which are only incrementally better. RSS saves orders of a magnitude more energy than is "saved" by modern JS which requires ever more powerful processors where older computers are simply incapable of browsing the modern web, but for some legacy websites which really highlight how "efficient" these techs you mentioned really are. The only thing they are efficient at is extracting money from users into Google's pockets and selling new iPhones.

Newer processors, massive low power RAM banks, specialized IP processors, cutting edge lithography, Webkit, Chromium, all these advancements google now claims as theirs with your logic.

achierius 4 days ago | parent [-]

How could Google claim WebKit as "theirs"? Symmetrically, how could you not acknowledge that without Google Chromium would not exist?