| ▲ | quailfarmer 15 days ago |
| The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple hardware great. Socketed RAM, CPU, and Storage just weren't worth the tradeoffs, namely size, weight, cost, and performance. Including those modular interfaces just wasn't worth it when the internal interfaces would be obsolete within 5 years, and the average user was replacing sub-components 0 times over the life of the device. The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature, any more than the user of a car being able to easily hot-swap the engine. The right level of integration provides a tradeoff the maximizes reliability, cost, performance, and repair. A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home. I really hope Framework can continue to develop hardware with documented repairability, without falling for the myth that tight integration and quality are mutually exclusive. |
|
| ▲ | xandrius 15 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms. Right now, having devices which require both expertise and expensive machinery means that the cost of going to someone to repair it will increase over 10 folds, making a full replacement a financial and sound choice. If my CPU doesn't last for 10 years but I can change it myself in minutes, I would rather that than throwing away everything else I still love and is still functional just for promised extended reliability (which is just a matter of statistics and profit margins at the end of the day). |
| |
| ▲ | bartread 15 days ago | parent [-] | | > If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms. You have to understand though that people like us are a tiny minority. Increasingly I hate creating waste, especially e-waste, and so I'll tinker with things to get them working or upgrade them, but most people don't want the hassle. | | |
| ▲ | xandrius 15 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think many throw away their remote controller when the batteries run out. So why do we do that for laptops? Because it makes them 2cm thinner? I believe this change benefits 100% the companies imposing them, consumers always have a tech-enthusiast around to ask if needs be. | | |
| ▲ | culopatin 15 days ago | parent [-] | | Rechargeable remotes like the Samsung one, yes. My dad tried to fix it and I had to get him a new one lol. |
| |
| ▲ | sitkack 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have taught at least three people how to do simple repairs and upgrades on laptops. Anyone that can read and use their brain can strip a laptop down to components and reassemble it. | | |
| ▲ | culopatin 15 days ago | parent [-] | | Ok, but you’re missing the point and reassuring OPs. Three people might as well be zero. | | |
| ▲ | sitkack 15 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I am not. If we continue to sit on our hands talk down about "most people" aren't interested in XYZ, we are the problem. Armchair dipshits like to slag on Louis Rossmann, but did lead repair sessions where he would teach people how to do hot air pcb rework. Dude walks the talk and empowers people. You are missing my point. | | |
| ▲ | urda 15 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You’re venting, not arguing. Teaching three people doesn’t scale, and anecdotes aren’t data. No one’s dismissing Rossmann or the value of empowerment. The problem is acting like isolated efforts equal systemic change. If this were as easy as you claim, the landscape would reflect that. So yes, you’re missing the point. Passion is fine, but without policy, infrastructure, and incentives, it goes nowhere. | | |
| ▲ | brewtide 15 days ago | parent | next [-] | | How do you think policy of any sort gets it's origin? Same token, sounds like you're arguing, not doing. | | | |
| ▲ | sitkack 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > without policy, infrastructure, and incentives, it goes nowhere. So how do we start? |
| |
| ▲ | 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
| |
| ▲ | fsflover 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It doesn't matter how many people do it as a hobby. Making a repair easier makes professional repair/upgrade cheaper, enabling poorer people to do it, thus decreasing the overall waste dramatically. |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | zenolijo 15 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home. Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead. While the battery might be the only thing with a fixed lifetime, other components often also break. I was unlucky and owned a ThinkPad with one soldered on RAM module and one socketed slot to be able to upgrade the RAM, but that didn't help the day that the soldered on RAM died on me. |
| |
| ▲ | bux93 15 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not just price. The market for this expertise is also not very deep and liquid. If I have to get a laptop repaired, what are my choices? Send it off to the manufacturer/importer if it's still under warranty, and get it back in maybe two months. Drop it off at a shop that does also phone repairs and hope they don't wreck it? Realistically I don't know anyone with my specific kind of problem who's used their services before, so I don't really know their reputation. It's not like walking into a supermarket, or even getting a car repaired where you have some sense of the likelihood it will take as long as they say, cost as much as they say and actually succeed. There's much greater information asymmetry. Of course, given how unattractive it is to get something repaired, more people will be inclined to just buy something new, resulting in less demand for repairs, resulting in less supply, less attractive repair market, etc. Repairability (at home, by relative morons) also means more repair shops, because less repairability means death of a repairs market. | | |
| ▲ | d3nj4l 15 days ago | parent [-] | | Apple is actually really fast with repairs. I got my MBP back in about a week when I sent it in under the limited warranty, not even Apple Care. |
| |
| ▲ | maiinablegkri 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead. This is generally a problem in taxation than the devices. Consider I want to have an electrician fix my broken wallsocket: >Billed for 100€/hour >Out of which expenses for moving using a workcar, calculating by officially recognized tax administration car wear value 0,59€/km for 5km both ways, so ~6€, 94€ remains >VAT is 25,5%, leaving you with ~70€ >Paying for mandatory employer's portion of pension 17,5%, leaving us with ~57,75€ Now the employee gets 57,75€, out of which following are deducted: >Income tax for average electrician: 26%, ~15€ >Employee's part of mandatory pension: 7,15%, ~ 4,1€ >Municipal taxes: ~8% depending on municipality ~ 4,6€ So 57,75€ - 23,7€ = ~34€ There are also various single or partial percent taxes that slightly affect the outcome, and companies often want some sort of profit instead of directly giving 100% to the single employee. |
|
|
| ▲ | masswerk 15 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That said, I've a MacPro 3.1 in production (also 17 years now – always up), which is from Apple's era of easily (or even hot) swappable parts. Apart from failing 3rd party RAM, no issues ever. – And I'm probably going to upgrade the drives to SSD (still HDD) this year, since you can still get new upgrade parts for its ancient busses. (And for the failing RAM: open the hood, a LED tells you which strip is failing, swap it, close, go on… The build quality is quite amazing, BTW.) |
| |
| ▲ | op00to 15 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm a huge Thinkpad fan. I'm an even bigger MacBook fan. None of my MacBook Pros ever had any issues, and I used my last MacBook for 9 years. I could keep using it with Linux instead of MacOS, but I think almost a decade of use is plenty of value for me. There were recalls and scandals with the MacBook Pro over the years, but nothing that other vendors also didn't see, and that wouldn't have required the same exact parts being replaced. I'm thinking of the GPU issues with certain MacBooks. The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo. I had a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon with the HiDPI screen that was absolutely awful, requiring replacement multiple times. Each time, the moron from Unisys that Lenovo sent to do the on-site repair would return me with a laptop that was poorly reassembled, and with new problems due to the tech's ineptitude. The same dude did service for Lenovo servers, and he once dropped a server that needed a fan replaced on the floor. Talk about fragile. Thinkpads are great, and the oldest ones are still solid to use, but to say that MacBooks are fragile ignores that Thinkpads too are fragile. | | |
| ▲ | dahauns 15 days ago | parent [-] | | >The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo. Sorry, but this is a joke. "any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product"? Give me a break. Apple has been time and again the champion of denying issues with their products until lawsuits forced their hand, often settling without admitting wrongdoing. Bendgate, Batterygate, MBP nVidia, MBP AMD, Butterfly keyboard, just off the top of my head. (Again: My criticism here is about how Apple handled them.) "You're holding it wrong" is a meme for a reason (that didn't result in a lawsuit, though IIRC) | | |
| ▲ | op00to 15 days ago | parent [-] | | Every hardware vendor has problems. Suggesting that Apple is uniquely bad while others “stand behind their products” doesn’t hold up. The difference is that Apple, after enough pressure, actually fixes things. They create repair programs, offer recalls, and have the infrastructure to make things right. Most vendors don’t. Let’s look at the examples you listed. Butterfly keyboard Yes, a bad design. But Apple launched a repair program that covered every affected MacBook for multiple years. I was affected by this, and had my keyboard replaced twice. Compare that to Lenovo’s ThinkPad coil whine and sleep bugs, which they never publicly acknowledged and never fixed. Users were told it was “within spec.” Batterygate Apple throttled devices to preserve battery life and didn’t communicate it well. After the backlash, they launched a battery replacement program and settled a class-action lawsuit. HP had massive issues with failing batteries and Nvidia GPUs no meaningful recall, just silence. MBP GPU failures Apple ran logic board replacement programs for both sets of failures. They repaired machines years out of warranty. Microsoft, on the other hand, ignored Surface Pro 4 screen flickering for over two years, then limited their replacement program to a narrow window, leaving many customers stuck. Bendgate Apple initially downplayed it, but the iPhone 6 Plus was later included in a touchscreen repair program. Compare that to Asus ROG Zephyrus early models that ran hot, warped, and suffered fan noise issues. Users got nothing but “working as intended” responses. “You’re holding it wrong” A tone-deaf response. But they gave out free bumper cases to all iPhone 4 customers, no strings attached. Dell’s XPS 15, meanwhile, had persistent audio latency and trackpad issues over multiple generations, and they never rolled out a formal fix or support campaign. Apple has problems, yes. But they also have stores, trained techs, and formal programs that actually address the issues. The service experience isn’t perfect, but it exists. With most other vendors, you’re stuck mailing your device to a third-party contractor who might show up late and leave you worse off. Apple doesn’t get a free pass. But pretending they’re worse than companies who ghost their customers when things go wrong doesn’t line up with reality. | | |
| ▲ | dahauns 15 days ago | parent [-] | | >Every hardware vendor has problems. Yeah, and I explicitly stated that this isn't what I was criticizing. >The difference is that Apple, after enough pressure, actually fixes things. They create repair programs, offer recalls, and have the infrastructure to make things right. Most vendors don’t. Which simply is bullshit. I don't know why you feel the need for a play-by-play - I know, I was affected by several of them. And every single one of them was Apple reacting only after prolonged active denial and deflection culminating in lawsuits. There's nothing to defend here. That's shitty service. Kinda sad that that you feel the need to bring random other issues into the mix (Coil Whine, really? LOL, remember the MBP "Moo"?) coupled with outright lies (of course HP issued recall programs - for both the NVidia GPUs and the batteries). >The service experience isn’t perfect, but it exists. With most other vendors, you’re stuck mailing your device to a third-party contractor who might show up late and leave you worse off. No, with serious vendors, you're not. It seems you've never experienced real business on-site service. (And yes, it was still cheaper than AppleCare.)
Compare that to wondering with every visit at the service center whether your problem will even be acknowledged as such or you're gonna be gaslit. (And I'm speaking from experience.) > But pretending they’re worse than companies who ghost their customers when things go wrong doesn’t line up with reality. Neither does pretending that's all that exists (or even being close to the norm with high-end gear). | | |
| ▲ | op00to 15 days ago | parent [-] | | You’re leaning hard on a No True Scotsman argument here. “With serious vendors, you’re not” is doing a lot of hand-waving to ignore how inconsistent support actually is across the industry. Just because you had a good on-site experience doesn’t mean it’s universally better. In my case, I had a ThinkPad X1 Carbon with a new, whiz-bang 4k screen that needed warranty service due to a faulty panel. Lenovo sent out a Unisys contractor who botched the repair—cracked the screen bezel, and somehow left the machine unable to boot. Lenovo sent the same guy back, and each visit made things worse. This happened multiple times, and the machine had to be fully replaced more than once because the repairs kept introducing new problems. This same tech also dropped a Lenovo server during a fan swap at a different site. So yeah, I’ve experienced “real” onsite business service, and it was an absolute mess more often than not. Every vendor has issues. That’s not the point. The difference is that Apple actually rolls out repair programs and has the infrastructure to fix things in a relatively consistent way. You can take a broken machine to a store, talk to someone who can usually solve your problem, and almost always walk out with a solution. Pretending other vendors are more accountable just doesn’t match reality. They’re not immune to problems. They’re just a lot better at quietly ignoring them. | | |
| ▲ | dahauns 14 days ago | parent [-] | | And you are leaning hard into a combo of anecdata and sweeping generalization. I could recite lots of personal accounts of perfect service from Lenovo/HP/HPE business service (Mainly X/T-Series at Lenovo, Elitebooks/Z Workstations at HP, Proliants and general server/networking infrastructure at HP and later HPE) and terrible "business" service from Apple. Then what? >The difference is that Apple actually rolls out repair programs and has the infrastructure to fix things in a relatively consistent way. You can take a broken machine to a store, talk to someone who can usually solve your problem, and almost always walk out with a solution. And that's an idealized version not consistent with reality. "This is not an issue on our side" (very much related to my examples) is not a solution. Hell, in enough contexts "Bring in your device, we'll look at it, maybe repair it and you can collect it sometime later" isn't either (and for the longest time Apple didn't offer anything else - oh, and BTW: at least here in Austria, Apple Care Enterprise on-site is very much done via subcontractor...). >Pretending other vendors are more accountable just doesn’t match reality. They’re not immune to problems. They’re just a lot better at quietly ignoring them. Neither is this.
Again: repair programs/recalls and associated infrastructure aren't exclusive to apple, they are expected standard in business service.
And begrudgingly doing those recalls after (or shortly before) a judge orders you to isn't the high standard you seem to make it out to be. Too bad you had an issue with your on-site technician - but honestly I don't understand why you allowed them to repeatedly send him back after that mess... |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | wwweston 15 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Apple's era of easily (or even hot) swappable parts. This. It existed. The laptops still commanded enthusiasm, felt great, capable, and solid without being too heavy, and had swappable RAM and disk. Keyboard and battery swap were screwdriver set DIYs. Heck, the old Pismos had hot swappable battery and drive bays. I'm still frequently using a MacBook Pro 11,3. Only lets you swap the drive but that by itself is a great point of flexibility. The M series does amazing things which have their own merits, but the particular set of tradeoffs aren't inevitable. The "sacrifices must be made" idea apparently sacrifices recall of other possibilities first. | |
| ▲ | goldchainposse 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > failing 3rd party RAM Unless you're Samsung, almost all RAM is 3rd party. It's either Sammsung, SK Hynix, or Micron. | | |
| ▲ | masswerk 15 days ago | parent [-] | | Since the early 1990s, I had never a single Apple factory provided RAM fail, but certainly severals from 3rd parties – in the very same machines. And, of course, I've been too greedy to pay the premium… (But, in the end-run, this has probably been more expensive and certainly more of a hassle.) |
|
|
|
| ▲ | myaccountonhn 15 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think it's an attitude worth challenging. The minerals required to build these laptops are limited, and one day we will have to realize this and care for what we own. |
| |
| ▲ | simgt 15 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Easily swappable components also increase resources consumption. We don't necessary want or need to be able to fix all the parts of our laptops or cars (or shoes!) at home, but we definitely want and need a local professional to be able to do so for a reasonable cost. | | | |
| ▲ | gwbas1c 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Chips have a limited lifespan too. It doesn't matter if you can swap a module in your laptop, at some point all those chips will need to be recycled. |
|
|
| ▲ | bkor 15 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Socketed RAM CUDIMM is changeable and fast. > The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature Mostly because people seem to have forgotten that it was possible. Often laptops are slow to due either a too full disk and/or not enough memory. It used to be more common to upgrade those. But apparently that knowledge/skill is forgotten and it's now more custom to buy a new device. Being able to change those saves money IMO. |
| |
| ▲ | quailfarmer 15 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It's faster, but a big reason apple silicon is ahead is because the memory is co-packaged on an MCM. This is the direction things are going. | | |
| ▲ | bkor 15 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I noticed I made an error when remembering the memory type I saw a while ago. I meant the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(memory_module) That's a way to have the memory close, but still being able to change it (without e.g. hot air station or something). | |
| ▲ | nottorp 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not sure about that, although having those fixed short traces probably helps with speed, considering the stupid DDR5 negotiation on boot. The real reason however is that going up SoC SKUs at apple gives you more memory channels. Those bandwidth increases you see in specs are because of that, not because the memory is soldered. |
| |
| ▲ | culopatin 15 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People as in the general population were not doing it, just us weirdos. I funded my early career years by doing IT for home users of all sorts of expertise and budget and I feel like I got a decent gauge at what the average user did during the replaceable hardware era. The people in the middle class and below would end up with such a shit device out of the gate (those 400-600usd laptops at the time, lower outside of the us), that by the time they started complaining about slowness, the upgradeable things did not make a difference. 1 to 2gb ram with a shit Celeron? Hardly worth the money. Bottom shelf Core2duos, overheating, cracking hinges, etc. Not to mention that even then not all laptops were very standard in the way they were built. Taking one apart could be very time consuming and they would pay by the hour for me to do it, so after labor it was above what the device was worth and it would only buy them a few months of time at most. You do that once and you realize next time you’ll get a desktop. The richer people would just get MacBooks and only call me for software stuff. Companies had thinkpads and once purchased would never go out the standarized build. Just swap them when out of warranty, or at the time most would actually work at a desk with a desktop and leave work at work. | |
| ▲ | rangestransform 13 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | CAMM was not good enough to saturate the memory bandwidth of AMD Strix Halo. Imagine telling people to use a standard that is already dead on arrival for top end machines | |
| ▲ | thowawatp302 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Nah, personally? I know it’s possible, I’ve done it, and I just do not care anymore. not worth it | | |
| ▲ | op00to 15 days ago | parent [-] | | It's certainly not worth it. I don't think that, for laptops, RAM requirements are increasing nearly as fast as they did 10 years ago. I spec 64GB for my laptops today, and if I could have afforded it, I would have specced 64GB 10 years ago too. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | notpushkin 15 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For storage in particular, iBoff made an adapter for NAND chips that places them on a carrier board: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3N-z-Y8cuw The whole setup (allegedly) fits inside original chassis, too, and disk speeds are about the same. So the only real tradeoffs for Apple are cost and the fact that user can swap in third party parts instead of paying obscene prices Apple charges for spec upgrades. |
|
| ▲ | porphyra 15 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The physical socket also introduces a new point of failure. In the olden days there was often "ram was bad but taking it out and reseating it in the socket fixed it", which can be avoided by just having it be on the same physical chip. |
|
| ▲ | timewizard 15 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Since display technology does not update as fast as CPU technology, and keyboard technology rarely updates anymore at all, you might still expect the entire mainboard assembly to be upgradeable. Would certainly be more "green." |
|
| ▲ | globular-toast 15 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Sad but true. Most people don't do much with the things they own, even if they can. Cars get serviced when they are told to, by someone else. No modifications are done. It's a weird thing to me because you get the downsides of ownership (liability for servicing and repairs) but none of the upsides. I wish more people took direct control over their lives. But many are just happy to not think and put up with whatever they get. |
| |
| ▲ | NullPrefix 15 days ago | parent [-] | | >Cars [...] No modifications are done In a lot of places that is highly illegal | | |
| ▲ | globular-toast 15 days ago | parent [-] | | Really? Where? In the UK it's legal as long as it still passes MOT, but it should be declared to your insurer. | | |
| ▲ | NullPrefix 14 days ago | parent [-] | | Really? When you're talking about car mods, are you talking about adding chrome door handles or are you talking about LS swapping the engine? | | |
| ▲ | globular-toast 13 days ago | parent [-] | | You can do absolutely anything to things you own, including cars. That's kinda the point of ownership. Cut it in half if you want. Smash it to pieces. It's all good. I guess what you're really referring to is whether it's still legal to drive on the public highway. As far as I know you can still do anything as long as it still passes the MOT test for roadworthiness. People do engine swaps. You do have to consider insurance, though, which is also a legal requirement for use on the public highway. General insurers typically won't insure modified cars, but there are specialist insurers that will. As I understand the US is far more lax in its vehicle testing than other places, but this isn't really related to ownership and being able to modify things you own. | | |
| ▲ | NullPrefix 13 days ago | parent [-] | | >General insurers typically won't insure modified cars, but there are specialist insurers that will. It's illegal to drive without insurance. This effectively means that engine swaps are illegal, unless you are rich enough to afford some special insurance |
|
|
|
|
|