| ▲ | kasey_junk 7 months ago |
| One thing I’ve been curious about for a long time is if the use of prayer rugs in the Orthodox Churches predates Islam or was picked up by Christians from their Muslim neighbors. |
|
| ▲ | pvg 7 months ago | parent | next [-] |
| That whole bundle of traditions - prayer times, prayer directions, prayer accessories, etc predates Islam if for no other reason than that Islam is comparatively new. But the cross-pollination could have easily happened more than once and in both directions. |
| |
| ▲ | handfuloflight 7 months ago | parent | next [-] | | In fact the Muslims initially prayed towards Jerusalem (as did the Jews then and today) until revelation specifically turned them towards Mecca: > "So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram (the Sacred Mosque in Mecca). And wherever you are, turn your faces toward it..." Quran 2:144 | |
| ▲ | ralmidani 7 months ago | parent | prev [-] | | Even Muslims do not claim their religion is completely novel. The rituals may differ, but the creed preached by Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him) is the same preached by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, John, Jesus, and countless other prophets (peace be upon them all): worship The One True God (Allah, Yahweh) with no partners. As far as prayer rugs and other accessories, those are not actually part of our rituals as Muslims. Some people use them for practical purposes (prayer rugs help you avoid prostrating on dirt, asphalt, a potentially unclean carpet, etc. and prayer beads make it easier to keep count), while some others may have cultural reasons, and some just want to enhance their spiritual experience (e.g. incense and perfume). | | |
| ▲ | pushupentry1219 7 months ago | parent | next [-] | | Muslims say that Islam _was_ the religion of all the prophets you've mentioned. Because of this they also believe that Islam is the _oldest_ religion, since Adam, the first man, followed Islam. | | |
| ▲ | ralmidani 7 months ago | parent [-] | | “Islam” as a named religion with its own prescribed rituals and laws is specific to the message preached in Arabia in the 7th century. “Muslim” is a more transcendent term that encompasses all the prophets mentioned in the Quran, as well as those not mentioned. Their creed and state of mind (absolute submission to God’s will) is the same, but they did not follow a religion called “Islam”. Earlier prophets and their followers prayed, fasted, and gave charity. Some even made the pilgrimage to Makkah. However, certain details of these rituals may have differed between them and today’s Islam, and between one another. | | |
| ▲ | handfuloflight 7 months ago | parent [-] | | I don't see why "Islam" could not also be seen as a transcendent term, in that any religion that was revealed by God through a prophet or messenger is Islam, in so far as that religion conforms to His will. Quran 3:19 Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. |
|
| |
| ▲ | mensetmanusman 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For completeness to the reader, the creed preached by Jesus is historically very different. Rejection of Jesus’s Divinity:
• Islam acknowledges Jesus (Isa) as a prophet but explicitly denies His divinity or status as the Son of God. The Qur’an states: “He [Jesus] was no more than a servant: We granted Our favor to him” (Qur’an 43:59).
• The Qur’an emphasizes that Jesus did not die on the cross but was raised to heaven by God (Qur’an 4:157-158). Etc., etc. Islam historically reinterpreted Jesus and rejects the accounts of the first followers of Christ (the Church Fathers circa 100-300 AD). | | |
| ▲ | ralmidani 7 months ago | parent [-] | | This is not by any means a “complete” picture. There was no consensus that Jesus is divine, or about the nature of the divinity ascribed to him, even after the declaration in 325 of the Nicene Creed - from which 5 bishops abstained and were at least temporarily exiled. This NPR interview with Bart Ehrman, a former Evangelical who later became a historian and wrote “How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee” is very illuminating: https://www.npr.org/2014/04/07/300246095/if-jesus-never-call... Excerpts: > During his lifetime, Jesus himself didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God, and ... none of his disciples had any inkling at all that he was God. ... > You do find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John, or the last Gospel. Jesus says things like, "Before Abraham was, I am." And, "I and the Father are one," and, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." These are all statements you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's striking because we have earlier gospels and we have the writings of Paul, and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things. > I think it's completely implausible that Matthew, Mark and Luke would not mention that Jesus called himself God if that's what he was declaring about himself. That would be a rather important point to make. This is not an unusual view amongst scholars; it's simply the view that the Gospel of John is providing a theological understanding of Jesus that is not what was historically accurate. > Right at the same time that Christians were calling Jesus "God" is exactly when Romans started calling their emperors "God." So these Christians were not doing this in a vacuum; they were actually doing it in a context. I don't think this could be an accident that this is a point at which the emperors are being called "God." So by calling Jesus "God," in fact, it was a competition between your God, the emperor, and our God, Jesus. | | |
| ▲ | mensetmanusman 7 months ago | parent | next [-] | | There is never a consensus on anything until one decides who the interpreters are :) | |
| ▲ | PrismCrystal 7 months ago | parent | prev [-] | | > no consensus that Jesus is divine, or about the nature of the divinity ascribed to him, even after the declaration in 325 of the Nicene Creed Which shouldn’t be surprising, because by 325 CE (and really, by 100 CE) Christianity had been around long enough for groups to take it in all kinds of directions, just like some Asian or African peoples have created new religions that are ostensibly Christian but preserve little of the Christianity originally introduced by colonial powers. In my own academic field, I deal a lot with third-century Manichaeism, where it is obvious how popular preachers could repurpose existing monotheistic religions into something that bore little resemblance to them. > This NPR interview with a former Evangelical… You really ought to state plainly in your post that this is Bart Ehrman. While he is a prominent scholar, even researchers of early Christianity who are not themselves Christians take issue with some of his claims. |
|
| |
| ▲ | MrMcCall 7 months ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's all the Hanif Religion of Abraham, whose texts have been lost to time. Compassion is the only purpose of all God's religions, and is the ultimate arbiter of our life's chosen actions. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | chamanbuga 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I didn't know Orthodox Christians prostrated in their prayer much less use prayer rugs. Curious where this practice remains today. |
| |
| ▲ | handfuloflight 7 months ago | parent | next [-] | | They would as per Matthew 26:39. > "Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’" | |
| ▲ | raptorraver 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Especially monks and nuns do prostrations as part of their prayer rule. Some do hunderds, some do even thousands prostrations during their prayers. We use prayer rope when recitating Jesus Prayer[1]. Prayer rope helps count the prayers but also it gives your hands something to do while praying, so it's easier to focus. I usually have one in my pocket and I roll it in my hands secretly while in meetings or sometimes even during typing code. I don't really pray then but it reminds me of the spiritual reality and that my boring Teams-meetings and stupid Jira-tickets aren't the purpose of my life ;) 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer | | |
| ▲ | giraffe_lady 7 months ago | parent [-] | | The widespread use of the prayer rope with jesus prayer in orthodoxy is very recent, like second half of 20th century. Both things are ancient but the rope was more associated with monastics and some specific balkan regions where they were popular. The jesus prayer has been common but the modern hesychastic application of it was basically practiced only by monks until JD salinger made the way of the pilgrim popular. You hear about this practice a lot on the internet and it is very familiar to english-speaking converts but this practice is not typical among for example greeks christians in greece, or even most russians I don't think but I'm less clear on that. |
| |
| ▲ | sramsay 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Prostrations are part of every Orthodox tradition, to my knowledge. You will even see people making prostrations publicly in church especially during Great Lent, but you will generally not see people doing it at a Sunday liturgy since (in most traditions) prostrations are forbidden on Sundays. | | |
| ▲ | michaelsbradley 7 months ago | parent | next [-] | | They're part of the Western (Catholic) tradition as well, but less frequently encountered: during the Litany of the Saints that precedes ordination to the priesthood those to be ordained are prostrate; the ministers at the start of the Good Friday liturgy lie prostrate before the altar; and a few other special contexts. | |
| ▲ | raptorraver 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are variances in the traditions also here. In Russian tradition all the people in the Church do prostration during the eucharist prayers where wine and old are turned into Communion, and also before they partake the Communion. But in Greek tradition they don't do any prostrations during the liturgy. Prostrations aren't forbidden on Sundays but if you partake Eucharist you are not allowed to do prostration during that day. | |
| ▲ | asadalt 7 months ago | parent | prev [-] | | there is something about prostrations that’s interesting but i can’t tell what exactly scientifically. But it brings me relief everytime I do it in namaz. I understand that the act of submission is relieving (things will be ok/there is someone looking out for me) but also physically (hard to explain) no wonder it’s the meat of the entire prayer. Taking a prayer break from my messy code problems really resets my brain strain very quickly. |
| |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 7 months ago | parent | prev [-] | | Every Orthodox service I've been to we stood the entire time, though I never went on special holidays. My inner ex-Catholic wondered is it really church if I don't kneel and stand, kneel and stand, kneel and stand all through the service? My Ukrainian ex had a worship space in a corner. It didn't have any rugs but had hauntingly beautiful hand painted icons. Maybe rugs are more of a thing in the old countries? | | |
| ▲ | PrismCrystal 7 months ago | parent | next [-] | | Practices in Orthodox services can differ. For example, in some Romanian parishes everyone has knelt while the Gospel was being read, but I have never seen this elsewhere. And as the other poster mentions, full prostrations are done (and widely across the Orthodox world) in certain contexts. Some churches in Greece and Albania have pews -- the concept was brought back from the North American diaspora where Orthodox parishes were set up in former Protestant or Catholic church buildings -- so you can do all the standing, sitting, and kneeling you might be accustomed too. | |
| ▲ | jacobolus 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Churches probably have some kind of theological explanation, but alternately kneeling, sitting, and standing is much better physiologically. Having a large and diverse group of people all stay in the same position for an extended period is very rough on their bodies, and some more than others. Periodically switching prevents injuries caused by maintaining too much static load for too long in any one place. Probably also helps keep everyone awake. For the same reasons it's a good idea to occasionally switch positions while working. | | |
| ▲ | MrMcCall 7 months ago | parent | next [-] | | Loving God is not for God's benefit, but for ours. Our emanating love towards our Creator helps us emanate compassion for all our fellow human beings. It is the Greatest Command(ment), and the sole purpose of religion. As such -- as you say -- changing positions is good for our body which helps us to be more physically comfortable in this magnificent machine. Happiness is God's desire for us, but It has given us the absolutely free will to choose happiness or its opposites. A prayerful life is for personal and societal growth towards selfless compassion for all others, and away from selfish callous disregard for others. | |
| ▲ | giraffe_lady 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are theological explanations but it is also explicitly taught that physical movement and awareness of your body is an important part of prayer, similar to how bells and incense ask you to include those senses. Also there isn't a rule against sitting, orthodox churches have seats for people who need or want them and it's absolutely normal to see people sit for some or all of services. It is discouraged to notice who or wonder why. | |
| ▲ | ashoeafoot 7 months ago | parent | prev [-] | | it is all things but diverse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_Middle_... | | |
| ▲ | jacobolus 7 months ago | parent [-] | | Any typical religious service includes a diverse group of people, physiologically: men and women, people of all ages, people of various body shapes and levels of fitness, etc., for some of whom it's especially bad to sit in one position for an extended time. |
|
| |
| ▲ | br3akaway 7 months ago | parent | prev [-] | | As a rule, Orthodox don't kneel on Sundays. Usually, weeknights during Lent you will see kneeling and prostrations. On a weekday liturgy (mass, always done in the morning) people will usually kneel at least for the Lord's Prayer (this is in the US) |
|
|
|
| ▲ | nashashmi 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I believe the prayer rug comes from the Ottomans (uncited) who added prestige to the artifacts. After the conquest of Constantinople, the Ottomons adopted the Roman (Byzantine) Orthodox Church's symbol () to represent Islam (Crescent and Star). They adopted the church dome and bell tower for architecture of the mosque called dome and minaret. And now it seems they also adopted the prayer rug. (Fun anecdote: I traveled to Venice and the tour guide said the architecture of the St. Marks Basilica is different from the Catholic Churches of the rest of Italy as it resembles Islamic Architecture influences. Ha! It resembles Byzantine or Constantinople influences, not Islamic at all but quite similar.) |
|
| ▲ | 7 months ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [deleted] |