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Wildlife monitoring technologies used to intimidate and spy on women(cam.ac.uk)
120 points by gnabgib 11 hours ago | 35 comments
dghlsakjg 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Nobody could have realised that camera traps put in the Indian forest to monitor mammals actually have a profoundly negative impact on the mental health of local women who use these spaces.

Most women could have predicted that spycams in a park, run by a government in a country with known issues around women’s rights, would lead to issues.

Even governments with incredibly strict rules and indelible audit trails struggle with men in government using their access to data to stalk women. India is not a country known for these things.

johnisgood 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Why is it limited to women in general? It affects everyone.

And I wonder in what cases it is an issue for those, because we have cameras everywhere and people are fine with it.

> Camera traps and drones deployed by government authorities to monitor a forest in India are infringing on the privacy and rights of local women.

Why women specifically? Would it not affect me?!

> The women, who previously found sanctuary in the forest away from their male-dominated villages, told Simlai they feel watched and inhibited by camera traps, so talk and sing much more quietly.

This does not explain it. Men and women both do this. My Indian friend just went to visit a "retreat place" or whatever it is called for a week, there are both men an women.

I would not want to be recorded in the forest either, nor anywhere else, but it is a "fact of life" I cannot do against. :|

sabbaticaldev 14 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Why is it limited to women in general? It affects everyone

John, you should ask this to men, why do men get obsessed over women and stalk them much more often?

> Why women specifically? Would it not affect me?!

do you have a history of being stalked by women? I don’t believe

ChrisMarshallNY 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Here in NY, we had a [very short-term] governor, who used to be the Attorney General, get hoist by his own petard.

While AG, he put in place, a monitoring regimen, that caught him, as Guv, using state funds to buy hookers and whatnot.

For all I know, he might have gotten away with it, if he hadn’t been using state funds.

It kinda ripped the lid off a bunch of fairly misogynistic attitudes, though. He didn’t last long, after that.

Spooky23 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nah. A compliance officer at his bank filed a SAR because he was structuring wire transfers to bypass his reporting requirement. He wasn’t using state funds.

The Feds started poking around, and voilà. The Southern District of NY US Attorney was a big game hunter for politicians, so his goose was cooked.

Ironically, the lieutenant governor who replaced him came out swinging, disclosing that he did inhale, regularly had sex outside of his marriage, did cocaine and various other things. Lol.

Semaphor 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> Ironically, the lieutenant governor who replaced him came out swinging, disclosing that he did inhale, regularly had sex outside of his marriage, did cocaine and various other things. Lol.

Hah, how did he do?

fsckboy 6 hours ago | parent [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer_prostitution_sca...

succeeded as governor by David Paterson, a blind man... nothing says a blind governor can't embezzle funds to spend on prostitutes, but perhaps it's less common? wikip: Paterson launched a campaign for a full term as governor in the 2010 New York gubernatorial election, but he announced on February 26, 2010, that he would bow out of the race. During the final year of his administration, Paterson faced allegations of soliciting improper gifts and making false statements; he was eventually fined in excess of $62,000 for accepting free New York Yankees tickets. He was not charged with perjury.

He was succeeded as governor by

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cuomo_sexual_harassment...

yieldcrv 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Consuming sex work isn’t misogynistic, by definition as it doesnt involve contempt or hate of women, sex workers have a voice too and don’t want to be marginalized by that assumption or dilution of that word

Just a view I see lacking and underrepresented in tech spaces

But if there are other things you’re referring to with that governor then definitely mention those, separately

automatic6131 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>Consuming sex work isn’t misogynistic

Something very much up for debate amongst leading scholars. I - personally - think buying sex is bad, and degrading to both parties.

Cumpiler69 an hour ago | parent [-]

>Something very much up for debate amongst leading scholars

Who are those "leading scholars" and what gives them authority to be the judge what consenting adults do with their body for a living or for entertainment?

mensetmanusman 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

What gives anyone authority either way to say whether something is degrading?

It comes down to consensus in practice.

Cumpiler69 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

Exactly. Random people should stop trying to play "morality police" on consenting adults engaging in legal activities in their own private spaces in their private time. It's none of your concern what other people do.

pvaldes 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This excuse has been also used in Swedden to forbid trail cameras in public areas unless the government emit a permit. People has been sued because a woman toke a dump in front of the camera. Is unclear to me if this was deliberated or not.

Is a "think on the children", but with women.

The fact is that people in public areas can and should expect to be filmed or appear in the background of a selfie. First because is legal, and second because is unavoidable.

Without the current "male panic", women shouldn't have a problem with appearing in the background of a low quality photo (that in most cases will show a blurred face). Men don't care about it either, and people don't wander around naked in forests typically.

Cameras can have benefits for women also. Will detect presence of wild animals in the area that could be dangerous to women; or criminal activity, like poachers, arsonists or violators. I assume that this is the real problem with the presence of cameras here. That poachers are being filmed

They aren't neither bad or good. Is just a tool. The huge majority of zoologists are normal responsible people that would delete any photo with sensitive personal information and never would filter it to internet.

The fix is to put banners on the area, but then the cameras will be stolen. Or we could also stop to study nature and let everything go to hell.

em-bee 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The fact is that people in public areas can and should expect to be filmed

in germany i can expect the opposite because surveillance cameras in public spaces are illegal.

this is not a "think of the women" argument, but "think of the people".

pvaldes 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

In most countries, people can legally spend all morning taking photos in a park if they want.

But the real problem in this particular case can be spotted from a mile. Crime against nature was so rampant, that the India government must spend money and use cameras, drones and anything to stop it in the protected area. This is really "think of the criminals".

The alleged psychological damage done to women because a natural protected area is being surveilled, is clearly an excuse from poachers, unable now to continue their previous activity freely.

I will not try to pretend that I understand the role of women on Indian culture and how much fragile mentally they are, but I assume that most of them can understand that scientific work is necessary and that behind each camera there is not necessarily a rapist. Cambridge has also women doing science also. If this women are so stressed, the most probable reason is that they are poachers also.

Either you protect it, or you lose it. My sympathy for the "victims" of protecting nature is decreasing fast

x3ro an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

To be very clear, this only applies to private individuals setting up cameras. The government is very much able to surveil the population to its hearts content [1] (link German). There are plenty of "security" cameras around Berlin, at least.

[1]: https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/507980/bf8a67c2440522...

x3ro an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> The fact is that people in public areas can and should expect to be filmed

Says who? I certainly don't agree with this. It's a societal decision whether or not we want or need video surveillance, which is very different from some random dude filming me with his smartphone. Evidence on whether or not video surveillance is _effective_ is also, at the very least, inconclusive [1] and highly depends on location.

So no, I don't think people should expect to be filmed by their government or its contractors at all, _especially_ not in public places :)

[1]: https://journalistsresource.org/politics-and-government/surv...

nonrandomstring 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fly tipping is a reason that some UK councils hide cameras in woodlands [0]. That's what we semi-confirmed (the council "declined to deny it" in a coded response) in this episode "It is not closed, it is not a circuit, and it is not even television!"

For US readers "fly tipping" is illegal dumping of household waste, not giving money to insects.

[0] https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=26

nomilk 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems a lot of modern tech is (ab)used for the purpose of perving. I recently visited a gym which seemed very social media oriented (not dissimilar to most gyms tbh), but as days went by I gathered the impression something weird was going on. I ended up suspecting (but having absolutely no evidence) that the owner or staff was using the cameras to spy on members. Further oddities exist in the reviews for the place, which includes staff walking into the change rooms (of the opposite sex) with naked people there.

That's a really long/specific way of saying: wildlife cameras spying on Indian women is an instance of a more general problem.

I feel like plausible deniability (e.g. security/monitoring) is so easy that discovering and alleging wrong-doing would be met with little more than shrugging of shoulders.

fsckboy 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>I feel like plausible deniability...is so easy that discovering and alleging wrong-doing would be met with little more than shrugging of shoulders.

it was not met with shrugs

FTA: Young men appointed as temporary forest workers shared the photo on local Whatsapp and Facebook groups to "shame the woman," Simlai said. "We broke and set fire to every camera trap we could find after the daughter of our village was humiliated in such a brazen way," one local told the researchers.

nomilk 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> it was not met with shrugs

That's good news in this instance but not in the case of cameras in gyms and many other cases, unfortunately.

gadders 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>>Further oddities exist in the reviews for the place, which includes staff walking into the change rooms (of the opposite sex) with naked people there.

Unless it was a one-off error, that is the reddest of red flags.

averageRoyalty 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What solution do you propose for private businesses? Having cameras is sensible, if not a must. People are abusive, burglars break in, staff steal, etc.

nomilk 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't have a solution (and would be mindful any 'solution' could be unreasonably burdensome, unenforceable, or have unintended consequences). I just point out that the past couple of decades have seen a dramatic change how easy it is for people to be spied on, often in sensitive environments and unbeknown to them.

keithnz 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

another article with some other details https://www.enca.com/opinion/wildlife-monitoring-tech-used-h...

seems like they developed a set of principles a while back https://wildlabs.net/sites/default/files/principles_for_the_...

But my guess is without strict enforcement of the rules with consequences this will carry on.

gnabgib 9 hours ago | parent [-]

That article references this University of Cambridge study.

fsckboy 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

they should put the women in charge of the cameras and wildlife monitoring

bilbo0s 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Not as simple as that.

Sadly, in addition to men, there are also a lot of women, who abuse women. (And even children.)

lifestyleguru 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unfortunately I think that access to all kind of IP cameras is too easy. Normal people mostly don't care to install, don't bother to deal with setting up the recording infrastructure. Creeps, psychos, delusional people go wild with them, including pointing camera at neighbour doors, windows, garages in residential areas. Yes, you can tell them to turn the camera away but they are delusional so discussion rarely makes sense. Some people draw this sick perverted satisfaction in recording their neighbour and sometimes only violence works as an argument.

thaumasiotes 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Perhaps there's an inherent conflict between using the forest as a source of resources for the nearby village, and using it as a storage space for tigers.

nine_k 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That same forest without the cameras didn't exhibit that particular kind of conflict. I suppose the problem is in behavior of particular humans here, not of tigers, the forest, or even the cameras.

notRobot 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The forest is for all to use and not exploit

_giorgio_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suppose that this is not the right thread to ask about what devices would you use outdoor, but I'll try anyway...

Requisites:

- battery operated

- IP protection

- fast shutter (example: moving objects)

- wifi?

- night mode not important (using it in optimal conditions)

Thanks

RobotToaster 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> they feel watched and inhibited by camera traps, so talk and sing much more quietly.

Why would you stop singing loudly because of cameras?

Even if their singing is bad, they're just inflicting it on someone who they don't like?

blitzar 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If only people would not sing and dance when the tiktok camera is on.