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| ▲ | magic_hamster 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Israel was massively radicalized by October 7th. Prior to October 7th, a lot of Israelis believed that if Palestinians had a better economy and could afford a comfortable life, peace would be possible. October 7th was not just a surprise to many Israelis, but also the atrocities were so horrible that it radically changed how Israelis view the situation. This is hard to grasp, but a lot of people don't really understand what happened on October 7th, because this was stuff was obviously not shown on mainstream media. The entire situation is very tragic. But ultimately, October 7th killed any chance for peace between Israel and the Palestinians, for a long long time. The current population in Israel will never forget October 7th, there are some seriously cannot-be-unseen NSFL atrocities. | | |
| ▲ | throw310822 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Israel was massively radicalized by October 7th Israel had been locking Gaza in a total blockade for 17 years (with talk of "keeping them on a diet"), plus had bombed Gaza multiple times resulting in more than 5000 deaths (= 5 October 7ths- they called this "mowing the lawn". During these bombing campaigns we have pictures of Israelis enjoying the show from afar from observation points with food and drinks). In the meanwhile they enforced an apartheid regime in the West Bank, building new settlements for hundreds of thousands of residents, and launching pogroms to drive away the Palestinian population. So no, it wasn't Oct 7th that radicalised them. | | | |
| ▲ | throw_pm23 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is telling that you also mention "better economy" and "comfortable life", but not "equal rights" or "self-government" or any such thing. Even with animals in the zoo one doesn't think that all they need is being well-fed. | | |
| ▲ | throw310822 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This talk of "better economy" and "comfortable life" is pure self-deception on the part of Israelis. They liked to think that they would like peace with the Palestinians, while at the same time making no significant objection to their country implementing an apartheid regime and building settlements and imprisoning millions under an airtight blockade. Such is the level of self-deception that they are genuinely surprised and angry each time the Palestinians hit back- they see these as unprovoked- worse, ungrateful- attacks. | |
| ▲ | babkayaga 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | themaninthedark 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | ben_w 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Myself, I have no sense of what it's like in Israel right now, but I have noted several times that the October 7th attack was proportionally worse to Israel than 9/11 was to the US, so I can easily believe that this had a similar impact on the national psyche. That said, I do often read comments and news articles claiming that Netanyahu's government is unpopular within Israel, and that he only maintains his position by the support of the… well, there's not a polite way to describe the attitudes of the settlers who take land that isn't in Israel and then demand Israel defend them, nor those who demand violence while claiming their religious beliefs prohibit serving in the armed forces even though everyone else has conscription. Not confident of that popularity though, as Googling gets me an extraordinarily broad range of popularity scores. That said: > But ultimately, October 7th killed any chance for peace between Israel and the Palestinians, for a long long time. Did any chance of a peace live before? The Israeli PM who signed the Oslo Accords, Yitzhak Rabin, was shot by a far-right-wing Israeli extremist for signing them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords A large portion of the Palestinian population also opposed it. | |
| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | robobro 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I agree that what the IDF is doing to Palestinians, now and for a long time is very tragic, and it's also tragic how many of their own people and fellow soldiers they (IDF) killed on Oct 7th. | | | |
| ▲ | bbqfog 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | anal_reactor 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | dang 3 days ago | parent [-] | | You can't post like this here, and you've been breaking the site guidelines in other places too. If this keeps up, we're going to have to ban your account. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. |
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| ▲ | WaxProlix 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which atrocities? What wasn't shown on mainstream media? In my experience, most of what mainstream media claimed initially around atrocities was proven to be categorically false - up to and including the president of the USA going on live TV and lying about having seen evidence of baby killing, with staffers having to sheepishly and quietly release a "that didn't happen" statement later. Of course these retractions happened later, and Israel's explicit and planned messaging of atrocities, inhuman animal behavior, etc had its desired effect of riling people up to support a genocidal assault after a single successful counterattack from an impoverished people at war for generations. | | |
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| ▲ | burkaman 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but drawing any conclusions from random people on Twitter seems like a mistake. They might not be human, they might not be Israeli, and they might not be representative of Israel's 9 million people. I wouldn't want anybody to judge me based on how English-speaking Twitter accounts behave. | | |
| ▲ | alexlll862 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The IDF and elected islraelis officials were openly genicidal and bragged about killing civilians. It wasn't just random people. | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | burkaman 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Definitely valid to see what people you know are thinking (that's the whole point of the site), I just don't like the idea of believing you can see "what most Israelis are thinking". | | |
| ▲ | mandmandam 4 days ago | parent [-] | | ... But you can. There's been many polls taken, showing a clear majority are happy with the situation or wish the killing were going quicker. I see no reason not to believe them. |
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| ▲ | edanm 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | renewiltord 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Not to say it is or is not but isn’t that what everyone does? Wegschauen. | | |
| ▲ | edanm 4 days ago | parent [-] | | You call it "looking away" (if I understand what that word means). I think that's incredibly wrong, actually. The army is part of Israeli society in a way that is very different to bigger countries. Some of these software developers are themselves reservists going into Gaza. Certainly 100% of them personally know people who are reservists involved in the war in some way. So I think it's much more accurate to say that the average Israeli is far more informed than the average non-Israeli about what is happening and how the army behaves. That shouldn't mean you automatically trust whatever Israelis say. But when you personally know dozens of people who tell you what the war is like, what the situation in Gaza is like, and most of whom come down on the side of "look, it's horrible, war is horrible, but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains, and Hamas is doing its best to put civilians in the line of fire", or statements to that effect - when you personally know many people who say that, that counts for a lot in most Israeli's eyes. (Though I'll note, since the thread we're on is about the ICC warrant - one of the allegations is against witholding of aid, which is something that isn't specifically part of how the IDF is conducting the war.) | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. It's the engineers in the IDF that I'm most uncomfortable with! | | |
| ▲ | edanm 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I understand. But you yourself I believe have mentioned just how strong the IDF is compared to Hamas - it could easily (in terms of force) inflict 100x the damage, at far lower cost to itself. > I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. While this is unprofessional and disgusting behavior, it does not come close to intentionally targeting civilians or not protecting civilians. | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 4 days ago | parent [-] | | My morals aren't up for litigation. What I've seen people support is far beyond my limit and what I'm willing to accept. Looting civilians is a war crime btw. |
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| ▲ | renewiltord 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have a general rule that I don't trust people's self-evaluation of morality. It's been my experience that even objectively very bad people will say that they are good people forced to do bad because of bad conditions. Nonetheless good people are forced to do bad things by bad conditions. Whether it is one or the other isn't usually determinable from the point of view of the participants. | | |
| ▲ | edanm 4 days ago | parent [-] | | That's fair, and an outside view is usually a good idea. But I also have a general rule that you should never judge a whole group of people as inherently evil or immoral, without attempting to understand them on their own terms, see them as they see themselves. Very rarely, if ever, are large groups of people immoral or evil. (Though societies themselves can certainly immoral collectively.) And Israel is a Western society, mostly. Its values are largely the same values as the US or Europe. If people with those values self-reflect and decide they are not acting immorally on the whole, then it's worth at least considering that they might just have more knowledge and context about what's happening than outsiders. | | |
| ▲ | bbqfog 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > And Israel is a Western society, mostly. Its values are largely the same values as the US or Europe. So you don't think it's indigenous to the Middle East? Israel shares values with no one. I've never seen dozens of US soldiers dress up in the lingerie of murdered women. | | |
| ▲ | edanm 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Israel isn't "indigenous" or not, it's a country. I think the same as the historical consensus - there was a state called Israel where the Jews lived, they were ethnically cleansed by the Roman Empire. Call it whatever you want. > Israel shares values with no one. I've never seen dozens of US soldiers dress up in the lingerie of murdered women. Have you seen the pictures of US soldiers at Abu Ghraib? It's not hard to find pictures of some US soldiers doing bad things. Not that that excuses what the IDF soldiers did. | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 2 days ago | parent [-] | | So when you say that Israel shares western values what you mean is the desire to commit sadistic torture and violate human rights? I don't disagree at all actually that the US also does not practice what it preaches. | | |
| ▲ | edanm a day ago | parent [-] | | What I'm saying is that to the extent you can infer from Abu Ghraib that "Western values are to commit sadistic torture", then you can infer Israeli values by pictures of IDF soldiers doing whatever. I think that extent is very small. If you think otherwise, then you're not really claiming Israel is worse so much as that all Western countries are terrible. (I disagree but that's your logic.) | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 a day ago | parent [-] | | Yes, Israel is much worse. I had never seen the inside of a child's skull before but since Israel started their genocide, I've seen it every day. |
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| ▲ | kelnos 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > most Israelis would completely disagree with you that genocide is happening in Gaza Then my opinion is that at best they're ignorant or have fallen prey to propaganda and misinformation, and at worst they're liars who are ok with what is happening. Either way, not a good look. Beyond that, I think we need to stop getting so hung up on the term "genocide". Regardless of whether or not what's happening in Gaza satisfies the legal definition of genocide, we should not be ok with what Israel is doing there. (And to avoid the usual knee-jerk troll responses: no, we should not be ok with what Hamas has done either.) | | |
| ▲ | edanm 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | bbqfog 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > You should also leave room for the possibility that the Israeli public is actually more informed than you are. Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, Israelis don't "know more", they are the perpetrators of many historic crimes. They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land. | | |
| ▲ | edanm 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Yes, actually. I believe many Nazis knew more about what was going on during the Holocaust than most of the world did - the world only really understood what was happening after WW2. > Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, We're not talking about Israel 70 years from now. I'm talking about people who are there right now and tell us, in real time, what is happening. > They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land. The land wasn't "stolen". As for whether there was ethnic cleansing, that's a much debated topic. It is also, unfortunately, the sad reality is that about 100 million people worldwide have been ethnically cleansed since WW2, many of them (though certainly not all) in the aftermath of WW2. |
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| ▲ | dotancohen 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | klipt 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | justin66 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In fairness to Israel, they have a peace movement and human rights movement and so on. It’s just that even before October 7th, they were getting increasingly outnumbered. | | |
| ▲ | jll29 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The situation is very heterogeneous: not all Israelis are okay with what their government does, and are increasingly outspoken against it. Not all Israelis are Jewish: note also that substantial numbers of Israelis are of Arab background, some with relatives (or fellow Muslims) in Palestine. Most of non-Jewish Israelis oppose the military measures. (But there are even a few that are upset that they cannot serve in the IDF because Arab Israeli citizens are not trusted enough to serve in Israel's military - in violation of equal treatment of cizitens.) Not all Jews are in favor of Israels military action: in particular among the most religious people, there is a division between those disgusted by Israel's own military action (c.f. Rabbi David Weiss at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FNtMV2i8-8 ) and those right-wingers that even volunteer to become settlers in areas cleared by bulldozers from Palestinian homes in violation of the law (UN resolution 2334, Fourth Geneva Convention). What is clear and undisputable is the power asymmetry between Israel and Palestine. |
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| ▲ | lotsofpulp 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
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| ▲ | bbqfog 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I've also struggled with looking at the tweets of the investors of our startup. When they were denying the first (of many) hospital bombings, I started thinking about finding a new job. |
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| ▲ | WJW 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | MrMcCall 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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