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dang 5 days ago

Users flagged it, as is common for the most divisive topics.

I've turned the flags off now, in keeping with HN's standard practices: some (but only some) stories with political overlap are allowed, and in the case of a Major Ongoing Topic (MOT) we prefer the stories that contain Significant New Information (SNI).

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

Here are a bunch of past explanations I've posted about how we approach this topic:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41744331 (Oct 2024)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40586961 (June 2024)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40418881 (May 2024)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39920732 (April 2024)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973 (March 2024)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 (Feb 2024)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 (Feb 2024)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 (Jan 2024)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 (Dec 2023)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27252765 (May 2021)

2OEH8eoCRo0 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Stories with flags turned off should display a banner. These moderation decisions deserve transparency.

ImPostingOnHN 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I agree, so long as the people who flagged a given submission or post should also be displayed, for the same reason of transparency. Also the items a user flags should be included in their profile, for the same reason of transparency.

In the interest of full disclosure and the same transparency, I say this as someone who has had such a flag-bombed submission saved, an NPR report about one of the first systemic uses of gun-armed, AI-powered flying drones to mass-shoot people (not to mention that location targeting for the shootings is largely AI-driven as well). I struggle to think of a good reason to flag that as off-topic for Hacker News:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42199969

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blackeyeblitzar 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

pvg 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

What you should do is reduce the degree of bombast and aggro in your comments which trash the discussion no matter what side of the various issues you happen to fall on. It's especially against your own interests to argue like that when you're arguing for an unpopular or contrarian viewpoint - it's not going to get heard if you yell it at everyone.

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TheGuyWhoCodes 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

y-c-o-m-b 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Dang has already addressed this:

> It's common, if not inevitable, for people who feel strongly about $topic to conclude that the system (or the community, or the mods, etc.) are biased against their side (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). One is far more likely to notice whatever data points that one dislikes because they go against one's view and overweight those relative to others (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). This is probably the single most reliable phenomenon on this site. Keep in mind that the people with the opposite view to yours are just as convinced that there's bias, but they're sure that it's against their side and in favor of yours.

As an "outside observer" to the insanity in this thread, I think your post and others like it only solidify Dang's point on this. In your eyes there will never be an opposing viewpoint to yours that you don't consider "anti-Israel". It'll always seem as such to you regardless of any rational explanation.

Edit: this also goes for the poster that is indiscriminately going around throwing "zionist" labels against anyone that opposes their views. Which once again, solidifies Dang's point. Both you and they will always proclaim "bias!"

TheGuyWhoCodes 4 days ago | parent [-]

Dang's point is moot (thanks dredmorbius for pointing this out) because the evidence of when he chooses to unflag posts have a clear bias, and he isn't transparent when he chooses to not intervene to allow flag posts, which also shows his bias, these discussions brings nothing to HN and are not in the spirit of HN regardless if it's pro or anti Israel or any other country. My point is that this is HN, this isn't /r/news or /r/worldnews, politics don't have a place on this platform.

"In your eyes there will never be an opposing viewpoint to yours that you don't consider "anti-Israel". It'll always seem as such to you regardless of any rational explanation." - You don't know me, my opinions or my thought, what I'm for or against.

dredmorbius 4 days ago | parent [-]

s/mute/moot/

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moot>

<https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/moot-or-mute>

Dang's generally happy to respond to emails inquiring as to practices, though he's increasingly complaining about email load: <hn@ycombinator.com>

I've done my own analysis of front-page activity on HN and, though that's a limited methodology, overall biases don't appear to be overt. Mostly, HN has difficulty in discussing controversial topics, whether political, technical, social, or other. That's inherent to the site mechanisms (voting, flagging, comments), and if anything mods intervene to counter that effect, though with limited success.

That's scattered over a number of comments, a general search will surface many of them:

<https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...>

On general patterns: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36552720>

You can also review dang's visible comments (a small subset of overall moderation, most of which is NOT by mods at all but by member votes/flags), to see what if any biases emerge. Largely to the extent that there are it's a status quo bias with tone policing as a principle issue. He's been getting better on that last point in the past few years, though I'll occasionally still find what I find to be unwarranted or unsympathetic interventions. And I do mean occasional --- maybe a every few months, for the most part.

If you do want to address controversial topics, remaining within HN's guidelines will greatly increase your efficacy:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

I'd joined HN some time back feeling as if I were somewhat against the mainstream. I've had reasonable success in expressing my own views, and addressing bias whether through comments, votes, or emailing mods.

TheGuyWhoCodes 4 days ago | parent [-]

I appreciate your analysis and I would like, if you will, to focus on the controversial/flagged content analysis more.

What Dan has done is counter productive to his moderation efforts. If what you say is true that 'HN has difficulty in discussing controversial topics' and that the mods have 'limited success' he shouldn't have unflagged this item and just locked it for comments, he and the team can't possibly moderate an almost 1k comments post.

dredmorbius 4 days ago | parent [-]

Again, HN mods don't do most moderation on site, and see only a very small sampling of comments (<https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...>).

I don't know if they have specific tools to identify potentially problematic posts (P3?), though the flamewar detector and member flags would be obvious proxies. I've often had success in emailing specific issues (e.g., "ideological battle", "personal attacks", etc.)

But the way to address HN guidelines violations is to vote and flag violations yourself, and email mods for egregious cases. Perpetuating flamewars and violations is right out: <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...>.

If you'll spend a few moments contemplating what it takes to discuss highly controversial topics, political or otherwise, I suspect you'll realise that HN simply isn't equipped for that, and that very few open-access sites are.

(That'd be "none" in my experience, though I really wish it weren't the case. And if anyone cares to suggest what might make this possible or suggest literature on the topic, I'd appreciate it. Jürgen Habermas is the usual susepct though I haven't gone over his work on social discourse as thoroughly as I'd like.)

Edit/addition: HN moderation follows guidelines rather than content (to the extent that these can be distinguished). Which means that mods look to the guidelines for how to moderate, or justify those moderation decisions. The other site characteristic dang's commented on several times is how fragile the entire community is, and that most of the moderation is geared more around maintaining the community rather than bolstering or suppressing specific viewpoints (see: <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...>). Again, I've concerns with how this tends toward status quo bias, though that doesn't seem to be the principle focus of your own concerns here.

And on analysing post flags, I simply don't have insights into that data, though there are some proxies for this which I'd commented on in the comments search linked earlier. (Mostly: what topics/sites tend to see more/less flame/spiciness tendencies. Sites / topics (or word tokens) / submitters with a high comments-to-votes ratio would tend to be "spicier", and in general, odds are greater that moderator intervention has occurred for those cases. I've not looked into that specifically however.

fldskfjdslkfj 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

TheGuyWhoCodes 5 days ago | parent [-]

Bias in moderation is wrong, it's clear cut. If Dan can't be unbiased, allegedly, I thank him for his work on HN but he should step down.

talldayo 5 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

TheGuyWhoCodes 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

1. So are other platforms, what's your point? I don't think I do when it clearly biased.

2. Then you can say the same to all the other big platforms such is twitter, reddit, bluesky, twitch yet they are held to a higher standards?

fragmede 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There's flag protection that dang/moderators choose to enact on contentious posts like this one that result in them sticking around for way longer than without the protection. If anything, dang is biased in favor of political posts like these lasting way longer than I bet he'd personally want to.

wslh 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

ars 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

ImPostingOnHN 4 days ago | parent [-]

Would you mind giving a few examples?

I looked at a few myself, many are off-topic, or engage in whataboutism, or openly supported war crimes like collective punishment. Others are plain insults or racism.

ars 4 days ago | parent [-]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42206068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42208721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42205267 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42208229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42208765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42207363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42207487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42209050

Should I continue?

ImPostingOnHN 4 days ago | parent [-]

1. Off-topic whataboutism.

2. Shallow dismissal, Arguably incorrect as well.

3. Shallow dismissal, Insult.

4. Supporting the forced displacement of civilians and destruction of their home.

5. Not sure about this one! I'd prefer the poster didn't advocate for the country of Palestine or Israel to lose rights, but that's just my 2 cents.

6. Shallow dismissal, Insult.

7. Blatant racism and religious discrimination. Classy.

8. Shallow dismissal.

ars 4 days ago | parent [-]

And you think "shallow dismissals" deserve to be flagged, and marked dead?

Really?

And the one-sided nature of flagging is also fine with you?

Not to mention I quite disagree with your analysis of things, for example #1 is not offtopic at all, it's a direct reply.

What about this comment (my comment): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42206831 which got flagged as well? Is that also a "shallow dismissal"?

ImPostingOnHN 4 days ago | parent [-]

I mean, the guidelines [0] explicitly say,

> Please don't post shallow dismissals

I think it's reasonable to flag items which violate the site guidelines.

> for example #1 is not offtopic at all, it's a direct reply

I didn't say it was offtopic, I said it was offtopic whataboutism. All whataboutism is offtopic. Its entire purpose is to terminate conversation about the allegation(s) in question. Just because someone posts a reply doesn't mean the reply is on-topic.

As for the linked post, it's whataboutism, a shallow dismissal, and an insult to boot. A non-shallow dismissal would respectfully and directly address the allegations presented in the warrant. You can disagree with the court without being disagreeable, but that precludes inflammatory statements like "If this was a real court..." (it is one).

> And the one-sided nature of flagging is also fine with you?

I expect to see a level of flagging against each side in rough proportion to that side's inflammatory, off-topic, or rule-violating posts. For example, you previously linked to blatant racism against arabs, expressing confusion as to why it got flagged. Isn't it obvious? Racism is bad, dude.

0: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

fldskfjdslkfj 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

dang 5 days ago | parent [-]

Stories about divisive topics are routinely flagged from all sides.

It's common, if not inevitable, for people who feel strongly about $topic to conclude that the system (or the community, or the mods, etc.) are biased against their side (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). One is far more likely to notice whatever data points that one dislikes because they go against one's view and overweight those relative to others (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). This is probably the single most reliable phenomenon on this site. Keep in mind that the people with the opposite view to yours are just as convinced that there's bias, but they're sure that it's against their side and in favor of yours.

I could never say there's no bias—unconscious bias is a thing, for example—but I can tell you that we work hard to be fair, have been doing that for years, and there hasn't been any change in our practices.

abtinf 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Out of curiosity, can you identify any pro-Israel stories that have been unflagged in the past year?

2OEH8eoCRo0 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Add something to the page that indicates moderator intervention so we can see for ourselves. All we have is your word.

Aren't you tired of answering the same questions on every divisive thread?

dang 2 days ago | parent [-]

Of course, but adding something like that wouldn't stop the questions. If anything, it would amplify them.

tguvot 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dang, you stated multiple times in the past that users who will use site for political discussions will be banned. I saw you in the past banning pro-israeli users after a few comments. How is this user https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=runarberg whose submissions and commentary pretty much totally political in nature still not banned, according to guidelines that you very fairly enforce ?

or this one https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=zhengiszen ?

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Tomte 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

wslh 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

fldskfjdslkfj 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure, and yet if you take the examples you provided, unless you just happened to make a series of "unlucky" picks the probability is that the bias is pretty strong.

Now of course, there's nothing inherently wrong with having a bias (depending on the bias of course), but if you clearly have one while claiming to try and be unbiased that's wrong imo.

tguvot 5 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

talldayo 5 days ago | parent [-]

I don't think you can call it bias because there are no options here. Israel outlawed foreign reporters from entering Gaza which means our only account of what's happening comes from an inherently biased Israeli perspective.

Flagging Haaretz columnists is not any more biased than flagging a "Death to America, Death to Israel" tweet. Flagging the ICC warrant because you disagree with it or it upsets you is conscious bias.

tguvot 5 days ago | parent [-]

unflagging anti-israeli articles while keeping articles about other major events that have appearance of pro-israel - is bias.

banning pro-israeli posters after a few messages supporting israel for "it's not place for political discussions" and keeping on-site those who post continuously anti-israel articles - is bias.

talldayo 5 days ago | parent [-]

> unflagging anti-israeli articles while keeping articles about other major events that have appearance of pro-israel - is bias.

To a limit. Very famously, a lot of Israeli publications promote an unrealistically positive perspective of their politics (a-la Hasbara). These Israeli articles with a predetermined bias are generally lower-quality and contribute to less fruitful discussion than the Israeli exposés like the "Lavander"/"Where's Daddy?" reports or the sniper drone allegations that NPR reported on yesterday. Since Israel has banned all other forms of reporting in Gaza I do not think it is biased to filter obvious propaganda when it appears.

> banning pro-israeli posters after a few messages supporting israel for "it's not place for political discussions" and keeping on-site those who post continuously anti-israel articles - is bias.

This I agree with. But it's not dang that's doing that, it's your everyone on HN that's not using a burner account and has the "flag" capability. We are extremely biased against fringe opinions expressed on fragile throwaway accounts. If you're seeing a disproportionate number of flagged Israeli perspectives, shouldn't that prompt a reflection on what the narrative is now? Gaza is not a back-burner discussion anymore, you cannot whataboutism or handwave justification for the plainly apparent ethnic cleansing Israel initiated.

tguvot 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

npr article is not sourced well. somebody said something. 0 evidence. same like article about "israeli targeting ai" that was published on israeli blog without any proofs that resulted in a cheerfull israeli bashing session

i posted below a couple of "non-burner" accounts that post anti-israeli articles for an year already without bans. it includes account that posted this article. it explicitly against rules and dang banned repeatedly pro-israeli users for writing a dozen of comments. will it be hypocrisy ? bias ? editorial policy ? casual anti-semitism ?

talldayo 5 days ago | parent [-]

To tell you the truth, I think you're crazy for expecting Hacker News of all places to not be biased. The website where users control comment and post visibility, where venture capital gets priority billing and anyone who shits on $TECH_CORP is hung up on a crucifix and poked with [150 more] comments? You mean they have strong opinions?

I disagree with a lot of the shit that gets flagged on this site. However, I don't think that posting the ICC warrant to HN is biased or even inherently political in nature. It's only Israeli nationalists pretending to be shocked at the world's reaction to Israel's choices. That's not a carte-blanche endorsement of everything that gets flagged on this website, but in this case I think the digressing opinion is the clearly biased one here.

Suck it up. This happens on HN all the time and unless you pay for the server costs nobody is going to give you the time of day. There are other websites that value consistency, you're not using one of them.

tguvot 5 days ago | parent [-]

i know that hn is biased. even more than anime tities. but i am talking here about dang specifically who supposed to enforce rules impartially. instead of this dang creates out of hn askmiddleeast.

fldskfjdslkfj 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not even "pro-israel" articles, it's just global event where israel is on the "receiving" end, such as the unprecedented Iranian missile strike

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40025617

I'm not even "pro" most of the actions israel has taken, but implying that the moderation is anywhere close to unbiased is just a joke.