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Things have improved a lot with the introduction of Quicklisp, but I'd have to agree when compared to others.

CL is still one of the nicest languages there is, and the only language that skirts the line between being some combination of dynamic and interpreted yet typed and compiled.

It is showing its age though, particularly around the edges like what you're saying.

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regularfry 7 days ago | parent [-]

Quicklisp is a start, and I like that it's a Debian-style distribution because it can at least move towards making the assertion that everything in the distribution is mutually compatible. The problem is that the underlying ecosystem has no culture of saying "version X of library A is only compatible with versions Y+ of library B". You can put that info in the asdf system definition but I don't see many examples of it.

The other problem is rate of updates, and that's a symptom of it basically being on one person's shoulders to keep it ticking over. I can't readily think of another major language ecosystem with that characteristic. It just seems really fragmented.

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liontwist 7 days ago | parent [-]

Quicklisp is merely a registry for getting libraries, not shipping code. Download what you want and use asdf.

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regularfry 7 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, that's what makes it immature. There doesn't seem to be anything in the ecosystem to handle version resolution. Qlot is a start towards that in that you can at least specify alternatives to get yourself out of a hole, but you still ended up in the hole in the first place.

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liontwist 7 days ago | parent [-]

I think it’s a good thing. I don’t want npm for Common Lisp.

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regularfry 7 days ago | parent [-]

Which bit is it that you object to?

Edit to add: this wasn't intended as a gotcha question, so apologies if it came across as one. I have issues with a lot of details about how npm works and the ecosystem it supports. I think it's possible to avoid them, and aim for something more like a bundler or a cargo, but again there are issues there (certainly in the former's case, I have less experience of the latter). Getting to a good answer that works for CL means understanding both the problem space and the known solutions elsewhere.

It might be that "a better quicklisp" is enough?

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liontwist 6 days ago | parent [-]

Sure, I didn’t take that negatively.

Let me start with facts:

- npm actually downloads multiple copies of each library, when needed to satisfy conflicting version requirements. - this is only possible due toruntime features of JavaScript. In most languages like C this causes symbol collisions. - I think this is a problem in Common Lisp too due to packages being global. Maybe there is a fancy way to rebuild packages at load time. - this is why the Debian style release makes sense. Either everything loads together, or not.

Opinions - I want to know all my dependencies. I treat them as my own source, so tar downloaded is close to my mental model. - For c projects I usually have a make file with curl commands tied to exactly url. If I want to update I manually change the url. - quicklisp already has a nice way to make an isolated folder just containing your code and its dependencies to be loaded with asdf. It gets out of the way once you have downloaded your libraries.

	▲	regularfry 6 days ago \| parent [-]
		Yes, that "feature" of npm isn't something you'll find elsewhere. It's not inherent to the problem of version resolution. Just about anywhere else you'll just get an error message that the version resolution isn't possible, if there's no available combination to satisfy all the requirements. That one design attribute of npm probably more any other feels like they did it because they could, not because it was a particularly good idea.