| ▲ | da_chicken 3 hours ago |
| I thought we knew a year ago that nVidia was doing circular finance? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/dec/28/nvidia-in... |
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| ▲ | bagacrap 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Most bubbles you see coming from a mile away. You just don't know how many miles away the actual pop is. |
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| ▲ | beloch an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | When a bubble pops, the pop typically takes years to happen. It's more of a slow deflation in most cases. Afterwards, you can easily spot the peak that would never be reached again but, during a "pop", it's not clear if you're past that peak or if you're just experiencing a momentary blip on the path to new highs. Nvidia is likely not going to surge back to $240 soon. It might go lower actually. Skeletons are still falling out of closets. Huang may have been the tech founder's tech founder, but he kept some pretty nasty company in recent years and, as we're now finding out, got both himself and his company into shady territory. As it turns out, ethics are not just for aesthetics. Is Nvidia slowing down for a year or two bad for AI as a technology? Probably not. Nvidia could find a leader that will return them to top form, or another company could take advantage of the situation to catch up and surge past. A lot of AI researchers have been calling for a pause or, at the very least, a slow-down. This might be just what was needed. However, given Nvidia's utterly unique position as both hardware supplier and bank for the data centre build-out, what will the impact be on the rest of the AI sector? The market is going to have to price in a weaker and slower build-out as well as a loss of trust in Nvidia. That's clear downwards pressure. Is it a blip, or are we now past the peak? | | |
| ▲ | dofm 31 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It’s not the only indication that we are past the peak, I think. OpenAI’s failure to raise what they wanted, Anthropic’s likely junk rating, banks struggling to offload AI debt at fairly deep discounts, Oracle’s obvious problems, the strength of open weights and open source, a loss of confidence in Coreweave etc. As you say, if Nvidia is chastened enough to slow its banking endeavours and that lets air out of the bubble in a progressive rather than dramatic way, that’s probably better for everyone (except OpenAI, who are probably hosed in that scenario, as they have huge commitments but are struggling to raise what they need; Anthropic might last long enough to reassess) |
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| ▲ | dofm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yep. Slowly and all at once. | | |
| ▲ | infused 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Especially if you ignore or avoid the evidence in front of your eyes. |
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| ▲ | echelon 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then why am I having trouble getting the GPU capacity I need? | | |
| ▲ | cowlevel 37 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Most of the GPUs that have been sold haven't been plugged in because there isn't enough electricity in the world | | | |
| ▲ | dofm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | GPU scarcity is a really poor proxy for the health of the AI market. I don’t know if I should be surprised that someone so bullish about it doesn’t understand this. | | |
| ▲ | The_Blade 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | you should not be surprised. paper millions already borrowed against at stake |
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| ▲ | anonymous908213 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Did you read the OP? Because Nvidia gave money to people who aren't you, so those people could give the money back to Nvidia for GPUs. In other words they gave away all of their GPUs in exchange for stakes in startups, because they were betting that VC hype and the perception of high demand generated from doing so would be worth more than selling GPUs normally. |
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| ▲ | cloudbonsai 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Does the math check out, though? For reference, Nvidia added $17B of non-marketable securities in 2025, and its total revenue was $215B. So, assuming all these equity investments went to GPU purchases, they only amount to 8% of its annual revenue. Since these firms (neoclouds and AI startups) will get consolidated if Nvidia puts too much money into them, I assume the majority of their funds are coming from elsewhere. |
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| ▲ | GolfPopper 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | NVIDIA appears to have made $530 billion in commitments and guarantees as of last August:
https://cellcog.ai/blog/nvidia-530-billion-commitments-guara... | |
| ▲ | bagacrap 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | 17B sounds low. > Corporate development-led AI equity investments alone exceeded $40 billion in just the first four months of 2026 The accusation in the headline is that this activity contributed to the general shortage of GPUs which would, if true, increase their pricing power and profit margins even on chips sold to other customers. So I don't think it's a direct comparison to their equity deals. Is this the only reason Nvidia made money? No, obviously. But is it adding fuel to the fire? If there is a bubble will this make the fallout worse? Seems likely. More importantly this suggests a second plausible reason the board might have wanted to wrest control of the company away from him. (The other hypothetical one being that he was doing illegal stuff.) | |
| ▲ | 33MHz-i486 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | if circularly financed neoclouds are 5% and singapore china flow is another 12% things suddenly dont look so good | |
| ▲ | omgwtfbyobbq 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | According to Gemini, Nvidia added $43 billion in direct equity stakes,$36 billion in AI compute partnerships, and $100+ billion in loan lease guarantees, which works out to $63 billion this year, $20 billion for the next 3 years, and $10 billion for the last 6 years based on it's assumptions. So about a third, a sixth, and a twelth of their annual revenue respectively. I think the larger concern is that both the revenue and assets/agreements depend on Nvidia maintaining sales, market share, and their share of capacity at TSMC/etc... If they run into trouble on any of those fronts, their revenue and assets could take hits from multiple directions. |
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| ▲ | TheAlchemist an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Just like we knew for at least a year already about the sales through Singapore. A lot of people called it for what it is at the time already (see for example: https://www.ft.com/content/6b1ce190-24d4-4f39-a518-ef9dae5fa...).
And yet, things unrolled very slowly, then suddenly. My theory is that once new CEO is found, especially if he comes from the outside, he will be highly incentivized to denounce past sins and disclose as much as possible to start with a clean sheet. I would bet that this is one of the main reasons the stock is tanking. House of cards is about to collapse, and that may be the trigger. |
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| ▲ | Rury 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| People pointed it out as early as 2023... |
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| ▲ | dofm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We did but people simply keep pretending it’s not happening. Between the circular financing and behaviour some analysts call “channel-stuffing”, it does seem that with Jensen Huang gone, the music is perhaps about to stop. |
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| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | No one seriously denies the actual activity was happening, they just dispute its implications, and for good reason. Vendors frequently extend financing with the hope of making more sales, the most obvious example being auto loans and BNPL | | |
| ▲ | dofm 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Vendor financing is already a sign of an unhealthy market. When widespread, almost always. If the only easy way you can borrow enough to buy a thing is from the vendor, that’s bad. And if vendor financing is an increasing, not decreasing, proportion of the finance in a market, that’s worse. Channel-stuffing, if it is happening, is usually plain illegal. The implications are obvious: if people are using GPU scarcity and prices as a proxy for AI demand (and they absolutely have and still are, at every level), and use it as an indication that they must secure GPUs while they can, then it matters a lot if in fact that demand is being padded out and front-loaded in various ways. | | |
| ▲ | conductr an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, but also, vendors are best positioned and most incentivized to be the lenders for their customers. They often just provide unbeatable terms compared to all options, even better than cash for those who do have that option and ability. A financing company usually is fully taking the credit risk. They have to charge a high interest and hope their underwriting process is sound. That is generally the only way they make money from the transaction. A vendor can give 0% interest or even a discount to financing customers because they are protected by the profit margin of the transaction. They can also have a looser underwriting process and take more credit risks while doing so. | |
| ▲ | quantified 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The enthusiasm for consumption seems real, though. Very large enterprises would purchase many more if they could. | |
| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Vendor financing is already a sign of an unhealthy market. When widespread, almost always. If the only easy way you can borrow enough to buy a thing is from the vendor, that’s bad. And if vendor financing is an increasing, not decreasing, proportion of the finance in a market, that’s worse. How much % of car loans are vendor financed? | | |
| ▲ | gizmo686 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Almost none. Dealerships will arrange financing for you, but the actual financing comes from a third party financial institution. The dealership walks away from the deal with the full cash value of the sale; and maybe a kickback from the bank.
The concerning thing with vendor financing is that the vendor is supposed to be in the widget business, not the financing business. If they are getting into the financing bussiness, that is generally a sign that the professional financers don't want to get involved; which is not a good sign. | | |
| ▲ | ak217 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | captive lender originations account for between 20% and 30% of the us auto loan volume depending on whether you count the loans or the volume | |
| ▲ | ralph84 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're being deliberately obtuse. Every auto manufacturer has a captive finance arm. That captive finance arm may be operated by a financial institution, but the financing is subvented by the auto manufacturer. Chase isn't offering 0% financing on a Subaru because they like the car, they're offering it because Subaru pays them to. | | |
| ▲ | dofm an hour ago | parent [-] | | This is, nevertheless, a quite different story. Nvidia does not have a captive finance company. The concern has to be that ordinary financial institutions might not make such loans to startups, and that therefore Nvidia is using vendor finance to create sales that otherwise would not happen. Rather than the auto loan system, where essentially the front face of an entire finance industry has moved into the dealerships but you can still get a car loan outside it. | | |
| ▲ | conductr an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Nvidia does not have a captive finance company You don’t need to when you have a few dozen customers you’re doing this for. You meet with them and plot world dominance over cocktails. Auto companies have the structure they do to support 1000s of dealerships and millions of customers. |
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| ▲ | a34729t an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Bullshit. Most of our economy is financing. Airlines are literally credit card companies with some aircraft leases attached. | | |
| ▲ | dofm 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Right but aren’t you kind of underscoring the point? It’s not really the kind of vendor finance we are talking about then; it’s really just the finance industry moving into loaning other things, moving the storefront into another business. It’s pretty highly regulated. Vendor finance of the kind Nvidia is doing is different: they are the single vendor for one thing, they are loaning to startups who otherwise might not get funding from banks, it’s coming from the same balance sheet as the product, and these loans are materially causing GPU scarcity. In general, vendor finance of the kind Nvidia is doing is indicative of an uncertain market, and when it’s the only vendor and it causes the price of the thing to rise, that’s obviously bad. The industry is very aware that it relies on this for its continuing growth and stability. |
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| ▲ | dofm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don’t know, because I am in the UK and I don’t know exactly what definition of vendor finance you’re working with. For example, here in the UK, that is extremely regulated, and you’re usually not buying with the dealer’s money, or the dealer chain’s money. Sometimes you are buying with the manufacturer’s money (through a regulated subsidiary finance company or joint venture) but most of the time you’re simply buying with money from a regulated finance company, from which the dealer is getting an introducer’s fee (and for which they must agree to be regulated). (I am not a driver and have no car loans but I am reasonably familiar with the business model from previous client business) It is my understanding that Nvidia is pretty directly using their own money for this: there is a criticism that they are essentially “selling their balance sheet as a service”, and that their total exposure is about $200 billion. Nvidia’s loans are not, in that sense, particularly comparable to even the loosest definition of auto loans. Not least because there’s no competition for the products. This is all putting aside how much money Jensen Huang has persuaded others to loan. Perhaps that side of things won’t go away; I think we might see him carrying on that function in some future capacity. But it will almost inevitably be at a much smaller scale, because the market is significantly less enthusiastic about lending more money. | |
| ▲ | adgjlsfhk1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | it's also an issue for cat companies. they get a double whammy during economic downturn because demand drops and supply rises (due to repossessed data flooding the market) |
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| ▲ | eddythompson80 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why is Nvidia financing neoclouds to buy Nvidia chips to rent to AI customers instead of owning the DCs themselves? At least it was my understanding that run their own DCs for GeForce Now for example |
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| ▲ | Anon1096 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You might as well ask why they don't just keep all their GPUs and compete directly with Anthropic and OpenAI to make frontier models. The answer is the same, Nvidia's core competency is hardware and although they dabble up the stack they would rather stay focused on the GPU business. It also provides a degree of separation where they can bet on many different neoclouds and AI businesses, and some may fail but there will be survivors and winners. | |
| ▲ | dofm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, they own chunks of Coreweave and Nebius I think? | | |
| ▲ | eddythompson80 an hour ago | parent [-] | | I didn't know that, I thought it was just financing deals as I never looked closely into it. It looks like the ownership is lowish in both though (from what I can fine) |
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| ▲ | kappi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Cisco did the same circular finance during 1998-2000 dot com bubble and Cisco crashed after that. |
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| ▲ | dumberquestions 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I just am unable to understand whether it's a bad thing or not, you could frame it as being circular, but you could also see it as Nvidia simply giving hardware in exchange for startup equity, is that really fundamentally problematic, is it the scale at which it was done, or is it a valid but risky tactic? |
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| ▲ | dofm 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The scale is the largest factor, I think. If vendor financing is happening in a mature multi-vendor market on a small enough scale as to not constrain supply, it’s a less unhealthy situation than when there is only one vendor. |
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