| ▲ | soperj a day ago |
| > They’ve been trained, usually by a social media niche, to believe that the only good fight is to actively harm corporations. Or maybe they just feel that corporations are actively trying to harm them and this is the logical response? I don't think that's unfair at this point. |
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| ▲ | Aurornis a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| This is another theme I notice in this same cohort: It is not permissible to even suggest that they’re doing anything wrong. Any time someone highlights behaviors or beliefs that have problems or are inconsistent, someone will pop up and blame that on the corporations, too. So even when these people have turned into a broken clock about being anti-corporate to the point that they’re anti-open-projects, someone will always come along to explain why we can’t fault them and instead everything is the fault of corporations. A normal working class person can not be faulted for their beliefs in this model, because every fault will be transformed into something that can be blamed on a corporation. Personally I find the erasure of individual thought in this model to be demeaning. You can’t blame everything every individual does on corporations having either made them do it or forced them to believe it through their actions. At some point we have to admit that people’s thoughts and actions are their own. If someone becomes so bitter that they’re becoming anti-OSM or anti-Wikipedia or anti-OSS, I’m fully okay with holding them to account for their chosen beliefs. |
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| ▲ | pastel8739 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > This is another theme I notice in this same cohort > Personally I find the erasure of individual thought in this model to be demeaning. The fact that you are describing a behavior that you believe to be shared among a sizable group of people seems to contradict your claim that their beliefs are due to individual failings rather than some broader social forces that caused them to believe these things, no? | | |
| ▲ | lucumo a day ago | parent | next [-] | | People are still responsible for their own opinions. Hiding behind "social forces" doesn't absolve them from that responsibility. | | |
| ▲ | pastel8739 a day ago | parent [-] | | Sure, individuals can have wrong beliefs. Of course. So what? Should we consider people who have beliefs that we believe the be wrong bad people and disassociate from them? Or should we try to understand their point of view and why they believe the things that they do so we can either reevaluate our own beliefs or change theirs? |
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| ▲ | shermantanktop a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Both can be true. The historical left/marxist view is essentially: look at someone's social context and where their money comes from, and you'll know how they probably think. The American ideology is: everyone is an individual and a tramp can be a philosopher. The second is much more appealing to us as individuals, and to our sense of self-determination and independence. And people do have agency---some people succumb to despair, others don't; some work hard, some don't; some rebound from setbacks, some don't. But if you look at large groups of people, the first one starts to have strong explanatory power. Look at US coverage of foreign elections, and that second view is almost all you see. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero a day ago | parent | next [-] | | What do you mean about US coverage of foreign elections? (Was "second view" a mistake for "first view" in that sentence?) | | |
| ▲ | shermantanktop a day ago | parent [-] | | Oops, yes. US coverage of foreign elections can't indulge in personality based coverage or leverage the audience's in-built understanding of culture and politics, so you get broad statements about how urban professionals voted for party X but the rural poor voted for party Y. |
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| ▲ | armchairhacker a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | “Probably” is key and doing some heavy lifting: both views are true. |
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| ▲ | myersj a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > rather than some broader social forces I think GP pretty clearly states it's due to broader social forces: > They’ve been trained, usually by a social media niche I don't think that was a complicated point, but maybe you think you were asking something else, while trying to still blame whatever "social forces" TikTok has told you to blame. | | |
| ▲ | pastel8739 a day ago | parent [-] | | Lol, I don’t use (have never used) TikTok; I generally think I have arrived at my current belief mostly through reading books. I’m responding primarily to this sentiment: > At some point we have to admit that people’s thoughts and actions are their own. I generally find that placing blame on individuals for views that one believes are wrong is not constructive. Clearly there are reasons that they believe the things that they do, and this is especially true when you disagree not with an individual but with an entire group. Of course anyone is free to get angry at anyone else for their individual beliefs, and I believe that individually people’s minds can be changed. But blaming individuals _who you have never met_ for behaviors that you are stereotyping from an entire group seems wholly unproductive. This is not going to change the group’s minds, and is only going to make you bitter. When discussing group behavior, it only makes sense to discuss things that influence the whole group. |
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| ▲ | pyrale a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > This is another theme I notice in this same cohort: It is not permissible to even suggest that they’re doing anything wrong. Not taking a side in this particular discussion, but this specific sentence looks like a self-fulfilling statement: if people disagree with you, you take it as proof that they are unable to evaluate your claim fairly. | |
| ▲ | ianmcgowan a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The weird thing to me is anthropomorphizing corporations as a "thing" - it's just a bunch of people too! | | | |
| ▲ | Loquebantur a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You engage in confessions as accusations when ignoring the possibility, it could be you who is wrong. The problem isn't "corporations", it's capitalism. The economic system forces corporations to behave in anti-social ways. Similar goes with the trope you peddle, individuals were to blame. They're not. The system they live in, and never had any say in shaping, forces them to engage in behaviors short term that ultimately run counter to their own interests long term. Contributing to open source software or commons like Wikipedia definitely is questionable. Those contributions get monopolized and their benefits privatized. That's not a "belief". | | |
| ▲ | thegrimmest a day ago | parent | next [-] | | What do you mean capitalism? As in the system of private ownership, free exchange, and due process, spanning back to the dawn of agriculture? Which bits do you object to? The idea that people should be able to form going concerns that outlive any individuals (e.g. investing in the construction of a fishing boat)? That several individuals should be able to share in the risk and profit of such a venture (e.g. a group investing in the construction, and receiving shares of the profit of each catch)? Or that they should be able to hire others on a free market for a wage or share of profits (e.g. hiring a crew for the boat)? Or that if they should have a dispute, there should be a formal, legal, process to resolve it? The trouble is that there is no human system in which the agents who distribute the resources are perfectly aligned with the agents to whom resources are distributed. This is nowhere more obvious than in the staggering planning, execution, and communication, failures of the Soviet Union. This is a general case of the alignment problem, which is fundamentally unsolved. I would argue that it's un-solvable as long as your agents are living organisms competing in an ecosystem. As long as niches exist, they will be exploited. Resenting that is akin to resenting the biggest fish in the pond for being so damn aggressive - it's pointless. We live in a pond. We should focus on maintaining the nonviolent and often ecosystem-benefitting nature of our exploitation (since it is hard-won and precarious), rather than resent the inescapable reality of its existence. | | |
| ▲ | soperj a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > As in the system of private ownership, free exchange, and due process, spanning back to the dawn of agriculture? As far as I can tell none of these things existed before modern times. Mostly people were under authoritarian rule. | |
| ▲ | Loquebantur a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You point out aspects you like about capitalism, but those maybe aren't the problematic parts to begin with? You imply, there were no viable alternatives, but that's just ignorance on your part. When you refer to "private ownership", you unreflectedly endorse things like individuals "owning" land. The consequence of that negligence are things like environmental destruction, capturing of arable land by rent-seeking individuals and on and on. A substantial part of what currently goes wrong on the macro-scale. "Free exchange" is a misnomer in the same vein. The "freedom" leaves people to willfully avoid asking whether they really should in the first place. More importantly, it favors people with money to impose their will upon those without. "Due process" isn't tied to capitalism to begin with and all these things don't "span back to the dawn of agriculture". You put up the straw man of the Soviet Union, prepping it up to the height of serving as the epitome of what humans could conceive of as alternatives (or modifications) of the existing system. That's a declaration of intellectual bankruptcy, not higher insight. | | |
| ▲ | thegrimmest a day ago | parent [-] | | Territorial (read: assertion of exclusive rights to the use of land) behaviour is not unique to humans. My point is that "capitalism" is an abstraction that includes pre-existing human behaviour and motivations, and that many of these in turn are emergent from the constraints of natural world. > environmental destruction, capturing of arable land by rent-seeking individuals and on and on > asking whether they really should in the first place? > it favors people with money to impose their will upon those without All of these criticisms reflect a total naivety to ecosystem dynamics at play, and the motivational landscape that they create. As long as these behaviours continue to create a competitive advantage for the organisms that display them, they will continue to emerge and perpetuate. There is no method of social organization that can remove the advantages of resource surplus. You'll also note that environmental destruction, resource hoarding, and interference competition are all widespread behaviours in the natural world. We are part of that world, and are subject to the constraints that it produces. It's like trying to overcome a bug in the CPU instruction set by writing JavaScript. The "problems" are part of the fundamental substrate and aren't addressable at the proposed layer of abstraction. | | |
| ▲ | Loquebantur a day ago | parent [-] | | Territorial behavior in animals is no justification for anything? When you abstract, you leave things out. You claim to abstract from cave people. How is that the best we can do? You pretend, humans were cells competing mindlessly. Then you conclude, any other approach than mindless behavior was naive. You again observe animals and justify your behavior (on a vastly greater scale) by it. How do you manage not to see the absurdity in that? You're not an animal, you have a conscious mind, capable of rational thought and according foresight. | | |
| ▲ | thegrimmest a day ago | parent [-] | | > You claim to abstract from cave people. How is that the best we can do? Because that is, in a very fundamental and immutable way, who we are. I'm saying that we live in an ecosystem, and that creates emergent properties and behaviours. Resource hoarding and interference competition are among those. No amount of consciousness, rational thought, or foresight, can change that. As long as (e.g.) hoarding resources today makes it more likely for your offspring to succeed tomorrow, the traits that influence people to hoard resources will continue to perpetuate. It's also why, for example, we have the dark tetrad - it works: Too high of trust creates opportunities for liars. Too many liars lowers trust to the point that it's not profitable to lie. There exists between these two points a stable equilibrium between zero liars and everyone lying all the time, and it's at neither extreme. The same is true for all other behaviours you moralize. I'm not justifying anything, I'm simply observing the constraints of the system we live in, and inferring that any mode of social organization that ignores or opposes these constraints is doomed. | | |
| ▲ | Loquebantur 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | In your imagination apparently, but that is clearly divorced from reality. Apart from debatable (but real) genetic differences you don't know about, the crucial point is culture. We're not cave people as we don't share their culture and don't have to. Your idea of our environment predisposing us for capitalism is simply false. Notably, the premise rests solely on your posturing here. Your ideas about people being automata beholden to their genetic programming beyond their control is even more absurd. And lacks any basis in evidence. You apparently have never heard about ethics. There is a difference between morals and ethics. Lying isn't wrong because "arbitrary morals" say so, it is because realistic, objective consequences tell you so. Your idea of an "equilibrium of all behaviors" presupposes mindless automata, again. | | |
| ▲ | thegrimmest 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Culture" also exists in an ecosystem, and is subject to evolutionary pressure. It's why things like religious zeal self-perpetuate - armies of fanatical maniacs tend to win wars against armies of pragmatic atheists. Human societies are meta-organisms - they modify themselves over time, and compete with each other for finite resources. Any culture which sacrifices competitive advantage for any reason is simply out-competed and absorbed by other societies which make no such sacrifice. There is no escaping this reality. This is referred to as cultural group selection. > Your idea of our environment predisposing us for capitalism is simply false. Notably, the premise rests solely on your posturing here. I'm not saying it predisposes us to capitalism though, I'm saying it predisposes us to maximize resources and engage in competitive behaviour. This is supported by the fact that very nearly every organism in nature also engages in resource maximization and competitive behaviour (r-Selection). There is no altruism (going against genetic self interest) in nature, it's simply not sustainable. > Your ideas about people being automata beholden to their genetic programming beyond their control is even more absurd. And lacks any basis in evidence. I'm making no such claim. I'm simply claiming there are constraints in the system, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away. > Lying isn't wrong because "arbitrary morals" say so, it is because realistic, objective consequences tell you so. Any yet, no matter how hard we try, we've not managed to eliminate lying (or even agree what specifically it means). Are you really suggesting that some yet-undiscovered set of rules will create a society in which no one will ever lie? Doesn't that sound a bit.. unrealistic? |
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| ▲ | matkoniecz a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The problem isn't "corporations", it's capitalism. well, other systems were tried and were worse (feudalism, communism etc) in practice capitalism with some regulations is better than known alternatives > Contributing to open source software or commons like Wikipedia definitely is questionable what is not questionable then? | | |
| ▲ | Loquebantur a day ago | parent [-] | | Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Worse, you mistake the bounds of your personal knowledge as the borders of the world. Even if there was no currently "known" alternative, the proper course of action is to research that and find one? | | |
| ▲ | matkoniecz a day ago | parent [-] | | > Even if there was no currently "known" alternative, the proper course of action is to research that and find one? please test it properly before putting it in production, communism went poorly > Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. note that I am not arguing that better system is impossible - that would be silly but "destroy capitalism" attempts went remarkably badly so far | | |
| ▲ | Loquebantur 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | The experiment "capitalism" has already failed. You simply refuse to acknowledge that fact. The idea, you would have to produce a turn-key solution, beta-tested on "somebody else" is obvious nonsense and pure deflection. In the given dire situation, you have to do the best you can, not wait for some imaginary perfect escape hatch to appear. | | |
| ▲ | matkoniecz 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | It failed less than communism and feudalism. Which other alternatives you see? |
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| ▲ | Gormo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If you translate "corporations" into it's actual meaning, then substitute it into your sentence, it becomes apparent how silly that is. "Or maybe they just feel that organizational methodologies used by people to coordinate complex multi-participant activities are actively trying to harm them and this is the logical response?" No, it's quite illogical. |
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| ▲ | xyzzy123 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If you think about government and corporations - they're responsible for so many bad things in the world! I guess that's true, but how much of it is them just doing all the stuff? So I don't know that it's fair? Nearly all the material goods around me and a ton of services were provided by corporations, which are largely composed of regular people glued together at scale by bureacracy. |
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| ▲ | unrented7977 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | There's a growing sentiment in the US that capitalism in general and consumerism in particular are inherently bad and cause only hardship and exploitation for the general public. | | |
| ▲ | shevy-java a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Capitalism is not inherently bad as such. Free market competition makes sense. Lowest prices. What we see right now in the USA, though, is a mafia. That has nothing to do with capitalism as such. It is a racket, a ponzi scheme. There are many variants of capitalism. Even the chinese adapted their variant to sinomarxistic ideals (to certain extent; I don't think today's main China is purely capitalistic nor purely sinomarxistic as it once used to be). | | |
| ▲ | Arainach a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The market abhors competition. The free market, absent government regulation, will always trend towards anticompetitive consolidation because it's far more profitable. | | |
| ▲ | Gormo a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Individual participants in the market may abhor competition, but the market itself is made of competition. Government intervention is the principal mechanism by which powerful participants restrain other partipants' market activity, and insulate themselves from competition. | | |
| ▲ | Arainach a day ago | parent [-] | | This (being made of competition) has never happened in practice. What happens in practice is that one or a small set of participants become big enough to shut others out through all sorts of tactics including locking suppliers and customers into exclusive contracts, buying out competitors, paying for ads and headlines about customers, etc., etc. | | |
| ▲ | Gormo a day ago | parent [-] | | > This (being made of competition) has never happened in practice. So there is no theory/practice distinction here, because there is no applicable theory -- it's all just a description of manifest reality. Markets just are ecosystems of people engaging in value-for-value exchange with each other, and competition just is an inherent characteristic of them that's observable in reality. > What happens in practice is that one or a small set of participants become big enough to shut others out through all sorts of tactics including locking suppliers and customers into exclusive contracts, buying out competitors, paying for ads and headlines about customers, etc., etc. Negotiating exclusive contracts is a way of securing long-term business from a customer, motivated by a desire to prevent the customer from defecting to a competitor -- naturally, customers don't sign such agreements unless there's something in it for them. Buying out competitors is only possible if there are competitors to buy out, which means there aren't barriers to entry, and other firms can target your weaknesses, which you're seeking to compensate for by gaining the market position of a firm that's been successful at doing so. If you can't maintain that position, someone else will fill it -- if they couldn't then the competitor you're acquiring couldn't have done it in the first place. Paying for ads is a method of trying to win customers' business in a competitive environment. If you didn't have competition, you wouldn't need to advertise. Everything you're listing here are methods by which firms engage in competition with each other. Every single item on your list is a tactic used by firms because they are in a competitive environment. | | |
| ▲ | Arainach a day ago | parent [-] | | I would suggest reading some history rather than economic fantasy. It's not "a competitive environment" just because it's legal to found a company if anticompetitive tactics are allowed. You can start a railroad, but if the big existing railroads that already have lines running to the cities and factories refuse to let you connect to their service, your company has no hope of surviving. You can start a factory making paperclips, but if the incumbent has billions of dollars in reserves and can afford to sell at a loss or barely above cost you will never be able to grow and thrive. You can make a lot more money talking to your competitors and agreeing to fix prices or to each operate in regions that happen to not overlap, eliminating competition. You can tell customers that if they want to buy product X that they want, they have to buy a bundle that includes Y, meaning that any competitors to Y are bound to fail since customers are already buying that version anyway. This is just the tip of the iceberg. "History of antitrust" will give you any number of real world examples. | | |
| ▲ | Gormo 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I would suggest reading some history rather than economic fantasy. So, history is a description of things that have actually happened, i.e. a chronicle of the actual state of the world as it progresses through time. Economics is a discipline that attempts to ascertain the condition of reality. So history and economics will tend to be fairly intertwined and mutually reinforcing. Rather, it's the attempt to inject normative dogmas built on conflict-oriented adversarial models of human interaction -- which are amply contradicted by both historical and observable current evidence -- that tends toward "fantasy". > You can start a railroad, but if the big existing railroads that already have lines running to the cities and factories refuse to let you connect to their service, your company has no hope of surviving. In fact, historically, the incentive structures that motivated railroad construction back when that was the big industrial boom actually led competing railroads to build their own track networks and stations, often in close proximity to each other. > You can start a factory making paperclips, but if the incumbent has billions of dollars in reserves and can afford to sell at a loss or barely above cost you will never be able to grow and thrive. So you're describing a scenario in which low barriers to entry and a completely commoditized product make the dominant player's position defensible only by selling at cost, or below, to the point of having to invest additional capital (from its "reserves") just to maintain the status quo and you're trying to use this as an example of a non-competitive market? This is an example of almost perfect competition, where the even the largest players are completely beholden to market pressures. > You can make a lot more money talking to your competitors and agreeing to fix prices or to each operate in regions that happen to not overlap, eliminating competition. ...which creates a situation in which your competitors now can make a lot more money by being the first to defect from the agreement. This is a classic prisoner's dilemma. And the same dynamics as in the paperclip scenario exist here too: even if collusive players try to fix prices, if they're fixing them too high, new entrants who are not party to their collusion will undercut them. > You can tell customers that if they want to buy product X that they want, they have to buy a bundle that includes Y, meaning that any competitors to Y are bound to fail since customers are already buying that version anyway. Except that now you've created a market opportunity for competitors to offer their own a-la-carte version of X, which is now more competitive than yours since customers don't have to buy Y to get X, along with incentivizing competitors to offer their own X-and-Y bundles with better features or price points than yours. Literally every example you're citing here is theoretical, and the reality of the industries you're describing reflects the opposite of the point you're trying to make. Railroads were numerous and competitive prior to the rise of widespread air travel. Dozens, possibly hundreds, of companies actually make paperclips. Price-fixing cartels are rare and short-lived. Bundled products are commonplace, and competitive both in the bundles themselves and in their constituent parts -- you'll never buy a new car without tires already included, but both cars and tires have numerous manufacturers selling a wide range of products independently of each other. |
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| ▲ | komali2 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Cory Doctorow wrote about this: "Capitalists Hate Capitalism" > Capitalists hate capitalism. They don’t want to be exposed to the risks entailed by competition, and feel the goad of that insecurity. They want monopolies, or platforms, or monopoly platforms. They want assets, not businesses. https://locusmag.com/feature/cory-doctorow-capitalists-hate-... |
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| ▲ | mrngld a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China didn't adapt it o "sinomarxistic ideals", whatever that is. Deng Xiaoping understood the failure of marxism, in almost all ways, so started ripping the band-aid. But he also wasn't interested in major political change. So we've got something that I'm surprised Europeans don't recognize; state-backed champions and heavy government intervention in various markets, and almost total free markets in sectors that the government doesn't really care about. But at no point can any one company or industry even attempt to undermine the central authority, because Deng wanted to get China out of the economic gutter, not lose power. | |
| ▲ | BSDobelix a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Capitalism is not inherently bad as such. Unchecked Capitalism always leads to Mono/Duopolies aka Mafia. The best of both World is maybe called Social-direct-democratic-capitalism. >What we see right now in the USA, though, is a mafia. That has nothing to do with capitalism as such. Has everything to do with unchecked Capitalism, go too far and both extremes end in a ~Monopoly, in Socialism/Communism it's mostly the State (China, USSR, Cuba etc.) in Capitalism a massive conglomerate of Enterprises (S.Korea, again "new" China, Russia, USA, India) |
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| ▲ | verisimi a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | ... whereas the truth is ...? | | |
| ▲ | Gormo a day ago | parent [-] | | That "capitalism" and "consumerism" are abstract concepts that represent pre-existing patterns of human activity that arise from a priori motivations, and are not things that exist as entities unto themselves exerting an influence on anyone's behavior or situational outcomes. | | |
| ▲ | verisimi 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | I've no issues with capital or people consuming stuff. My issue would be with the corporations, which I see as the new estates. Except that they are far larger and far more powerful than what we had two centuries ago. Their perks include: regulatory capture, political access, access to finance. Ie powerful corporations run the infrastructure for capital movement and consumption - in their interests. | | |
| ▲ | Gormo 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | So it sounds like rather than objecting to a specific method of coordinating large-scale activity among multiple participants ("corporations"), you're actually objecting to political interventions that favor some parties at the expense of others? I can get on board with that. It just seems really odd to look at "regulatory capture" and "political access" as problems originating from people engaging in commercial activity in the broader economy, rather than correctly seeing them as originating from insufficient or ineffective safeguards on the concentration and assertion of political power. > Ie powerful corporations run the infrastructure for capital movement and consumption - in their interests. Well, no, they don't. Both the capital and the consumption originates from the intentions and motivations of the public at large. The interests of "corporations" -- which are, again, just coordinated patterns of human activity -- are pursued by actually satisfying the motivations of the people around them. You can't get capital without offering a return to your investors; you can't get customers without offering a value proposition that's worth more to them than the price you're charging, etc. | | |
| ▲ | verisimi 28 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >> Ie powerful corporations run the infrastructure for capital movement and consumption - in their interests. > Well, no, they don't. Both the capital and the consumption originates from the intentions and motivations of the public at large. The interests of "corporations" -- which are, again, just coordinated patterns of human activity -- are pursued by actually satisfying the motivations of the people around them. You can't get capital without offering a return to your investors; you can't get customers without offering a value proposition that's worth more to them than the price you're charging, etc. Well, yes, they do. If you use the law to legislate this or that, you are directing the infrastructure. A great example is that people in general don't want phones/cars/fridges that spy on them, they simply want the phone/car/fridge. However, the simple option is not on offer. The regulatory capture provides us with the government mandate that data be captured, so it seems that corporate hands are tied. The consumer cannot find the option they would like. All this can happen while offering a return to investors. In fact, licensing businesses, creating moats that small companies cannot bridge, ensures that large corporations have an unassailable position. They can investigate the maximum extraction from the consumer, rather than price a product according to cost. Wait till we all start to experience personalised pricing, where each person is offered a different price according to who they are. Finally, you distinguish between corporate and political interests. I don't. These are the same creature to me. We already live in a fascist environment, where the government + business operate together. Whether you vote red or blue will do nothing for issues where the outcome is predetermined - such as the complete loss of privacy. |
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| ▲ | Computer0 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The material goods around me are crap and only serve to bring me further from being in touch with what it means to be human | | |
| ▲ | mikrotikker a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Stop buying Chinese made stuff. | | | |
| ▲ | hardbass 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Feel free to live in the jungle naked. Do notify me your identity so you can be banned from medicine and other material goods. | | | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | shevy-java a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Nearly all the material goods around me and a ton of services were provided by corporations But the issue is not about corporations - or companies - per se. The issue is how they relate to the general population. You can have good corporations and bad corporations. When billionaires buy legislation then something is wrong. When a corrupt elite invades countries and kills people - that's bad. | | |
| ▲ | Gormo a day ago | parent [-] | | So the problem with corporations is that governments sometimes do bad things that benefit them? The problem of "billionaires buying legislation" is that billionaires get money from market activity to buy it with, not that it's up for sale by politicians or that the limits on the scope of legislation are insufficient? When a military force marches into another country, that's the work of a vague "corrupt elite" and not the political officials in charge of the military? |
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| ▲ | soperj a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Everything is actively getting worse for more corporate espionage.
I didn't actually say anything about government, mine seems to genuinely care for our welfare. Corporate food products (at least from the US) seem to be designed to just get you to consume more of them. |
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| ▲ | unrented7977 a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Yeah, that seems like a perfectly natural response to the corporate capitalist hellscape the rising generations find themselves in. Shock horror, people tend to care most about things that they feel personally affect them. |
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