| ▲ | hmokiguess 9 hours ago |
| I saw a thread once from the language creator and community owner that left an impression on me https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46614727 |
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| ▲ | jmcgough 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Wait, people are upset because they have a code of conduct? |
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| ▲ | 15155 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | People are upset because their "code of conduct" extends far beyond the reasonable purview of the project. You may not participate if you hold and espouse ideals contrary to theirs in unrelated spaces. | | |
| ▲ | jmcgough 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Read the CoC again: https://github.com/gleam-lang/gleam/blob/main/CODE_OF_CONDUC... It doesn't police peoples' personal beliefs outside the community. It only says that while participating in the community you agree not to harass people and try to contribute in a positive way. I wonder if you have past experiences that are coloring your interpretation of this, because I'm really unsure where you're getting any of this from. | | |
| ▲ | 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | surgical_fire 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Eh, the controbutor covenant thing does have a tendency to attract people that are really into culture war and internet drama. That said, their CoC does not block anyone from merely using the language. | | |
| ▲ | jmcgough 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | People working on an open-source language aren't 19-year-olds on twitter, you're using the wrong heuristic here. They're there mostly to talk programming and work on a project together. The CoC is pretty standard language that you'd find at most conferences you attend. It specifically enumerates bigoted actions because several contributors are members of the LGBT community. The last thing many of them want is to deal with culture war nonsense seeping into their fun hobby. | | |
| ▲ | 15155 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > People working on an open-source language aren't 19-year-olds on twitter You don't say? https://x.com/louispilfold > "the maintainer is a legitimate communist. i will not be supporting this language" What type of individual do you suppose attaches their identity to this type of quote? | | | |
| ▲ | surgical_fire 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The last thing many of them want is to deal with culture war nonsense seeping into their fun hobby. This is bullshit. Typically we are talking about the same category of people that become Reddit mods. Those are full blown adults where internet drama and culture war nonsense is their actual hobby. The open source thing beneath it is the side project. It's the reason why I avoid getting involved with open source communities like billionaires avoid taxes. That said, my original point is not to avoid Gleam as a language. The language itself looks pretty interesting. You don't need to stare at the CoC to use the language. |
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| ▲ | omnimus 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I am honestly a bit confused because this whole comment chain looks like someone is starting culture war and drama? But you mean that the people who use gleam tend to be into culture wars, not the OP poster in the chain? | | |
| ▲ | surgical_fire 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > But you mean that the people who use gleam tend to be into culture wars, not the OP poster in the chain? Er... No? I think I was clear that you can use the language without getting involved with the drama related to the community behind the codebase. |
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| ▲ | i80and 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm gonna be honest, based on this thread it sounds more like the CoC is repelling people that are really into culture wars and internet drama. | | |
| ▲ | spiderice an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Culture wars come up in every Gleam thread. How often do you see culture war comments in a Rust, Elixir, Javascript, Etc thread? Essentially never. The Gleam founder's bigotry is a distraction at best. | | |
| ▲ | ModernMech 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I dunno about the others, but the icon for the Rust discord is the Rust logo superimposed on the pride flag, so they are not subtle about their position on the topic, and it has therefore been a topic of discussion in that community. The reality in online space is, you can either make Nazis aware they're not welcome at the door, or you can let them know when they start making trouble. Either way, if you wnt to keep your online community copasetic, eventually you have to tell Nazis to fuck off. |
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| ▲ | surgical_fire 26 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Whatever confirms your priors. What is interesting here is that most likely I am on the same side of the political aisle as the people there. I still find that sort of talk insufferable. Gives me mid-2010s "woke" bullshit vibes (god the slang of my contemporaries is horrid). |
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| ▲ | dsincl12 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | jakelazaroff 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Where is the "activism behavior"? All I see in the thread is other people whining because they disagree with the Gleam community's values. |
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| ▲ | MoOmer 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Agreed. Treat people well seemed to be the Gleam desire. The counterarguments from the other party (seemed like one person with multiple accounts to me) were about their disbelief in trans people and the idea behind the Black Lives Matter movement (coupling it with some organization that copied the name and stole some donations) | |
| ▲ | nchagnet 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Couldn't find it either, and my experience with the gleam community is that they're very welcoming and positive people. | |
| ▲ | 15155 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I am on that thread as well. The issue with these "codes of conduct" isn't that they exist, it's that their purveyors force the "code" upon every participant regardless of forum. If you don't support their special interests in completely unrelated venues, you are persona non grata and will either fall in line or be excommunicated. It's a sophisticated form of control via identity politics. | | |
| ▲ | jmcgough 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you're seriously overreacting; you don't need to believe the same things that they do, all the CoC states is that if you want to engage with the community, you agree not to harass people. Every community has similar expectations; having it in a markdown just makes it more explicit. | | |
| ▲ | 15155 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure, you don't need to "believe" the same things they do, but if you are vocal about your ideals on Twitter, for instance, you are unwelcome. "Don't publicly disagree with my ideals or I will use my little fiefdom to destroy you." | | |
| ▲ | jmcgough 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | You might be letting your personal experiences pollute things. The CoC never says that. It's anti-harassment language, and specifically enumerates what that might look like. Some contributors are members of the LGBT community, and I'm sure don't want to debate their personal identity when they're there to contribute to a project and write code. |
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| ▲ | jakelazaroff 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, yeah — people won't want to be in community with someone who transgresses against their social norms and values. Freely choosing with whom you associate is not a "form of control". You're still welcome to use the project. |
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| ▲ | nchagnet 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sounds to me like a lot of divisive American politics, as usual. I have no problem with a community setting whatever acceptance criteria they like. If the license did the same, I could see a case of being a bit of overzealousness. I couldn't find if that was the issue, but if your problem is that the creator and the community have political opinions and don't like people with incompatible ones, then that's just society... |
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| ▲ | hmokiguess 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > but if your problem is that the creator and the community have political opinions and don't like people with incompatible ones, then that's just society... No, I am fine with incompatible views and I often seek them in order to grow. I do not enjoy echo chambers and I usually prefer and welcome disparate, including contrarian, opinions. It's more like I don't want Ideology served with Programming Language, it feels like a distraction to me when I am in that mode. I usually consume Ideology under a different context, where I find it more productive and can contribute better to it. | | |
| ▲ | nchagnet 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think you have a reasonable position here, so I understand where you come from. I find this whole thread here interesting because until today I wasn't confronted by any of this, even though I joined the Discord and had a pleasant time (and will keep doing). So I guess all I have to say on this is I don't think the "ideology" is that much served with the programming language. Yes I read that there's a code of conduct and that annoyed some people. But like I downloaded Gleam, I coded with it, I talked to people, and the thought police didn't knock on my door. So I guess what I mean is that it feels a little overblown. | | |
| ▲ | hmokiguess 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Thanks for understanding it, and yes not everyone draws the line at the same boundaries. Once in a while I try to push my boundaries, but then again I like to choose where I do this. For this one, I prefer not to do it in a work adjacent environment with strangers on the internet. That aside, the language sounds fun hope you create cool things with it! | |
| ▲ | 15155 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I don't think the "ideology" is that much served with the programming language Their ideology is literally on the front page of https://gleam.run/ | | |
| ▲ | AnimalMuppet 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | On the front page or not, I think nchagnet's point is that, in practice, he doesn't bump into it much. Whether that's good enough for you or not is up to you. | |
| ▲ | omnimus 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | you mean this? > "As a community, we want to be friendly too. People from around the world, of all backgrounds, genders, and experience levels are welcome and respected equally. See our community code of conduct for more.
Black lives matter. Trans rights are human rights. No nazi bullsh*t. " |
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| ▲ | 15155 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > creator and the community have political opinions and don't like people with incompatible ones, then that's just society Why are my political views relevant? This is a programming language. Nobody is popping into the Gleam issue tracker and mentioning politics, nobody is violating the "code of conduct" there. The "code of conduct" exists solely to lambast people who disagree with the author's special interests in other irrelevant spaces. This is the "paradox of tolerance" in codified form. | | |
| ▲ | nchagnet 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I mean it's only relevant if you bring it with you in their community. You don't sign your soul away when you download the compiler. Do you have the same issue with all the ToS asking you to not be a nazi and whatnot on a given platform? |
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| ▲ | adamtulinius 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Maybe you could be specific, instead of just spreading FUD? I read through the discussion you linked, and I have no idea what you’re talking about, so to me your comment comes of as just FUD. |
