| ▲ | leobuskin a day ago |
| Pi is a good harness (I finally gave it a try w/ abliterated GLM), but not with Anthropic subscription, and there are multiple reasons to avoid alternative harnesses with their models in general (imho): 1. Potential ban due to ToS violation; 2. It doesn't follow all Anthropic's communication mechanisms out-of-the-box, they heavily use custom headers, hidden flags, and undocumented API features that affect models' behavior; 3. Compact is better in CC (significantly); 4. Cache related nuances (I mean, A\ regularly messes up with cache even in CC, their caching is non-trivial); 5. It's almost unavoidable to use Pi's extensions, and I wouldn't trust my oauth token to anything third-party (take a look at regular reddit/X posts where people getting banned due to such leaks and abuse) -> it takes enormous amount of hacking on top of Pi to get closer to CC abilities. CC has hooks and mods, even ui_* (undocumented) protocol if you need some big customization, those are enough to implement whatever you want on top of CC. Also, I'm working with CC from the very first versions, as for me - it's the best harness (as-is) on the market. I have zero clue what problems people are talking about (except known big issues, 3-4 over the years, I've never had serious problems, at all). Seamless and smooth experience, optimized for Anthropic models. P.S. You can consider this as Stockholm syndrome effect, but... you have close to zero chances to get unbanned with Anthropic, and it's the best coding model(s) available today. |
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| ▲ | miki123211 a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| Most harnesses are not designed with conversations to be append-only from the start, which causes us all endless pain when caching is concerned. When making a harness, it is so, so easy to do the "web thing" and have your system prompt be a template where you dynamically inject variables like the current date or the contents of the current working directory, and then just re-render that template on every request. THis is a bad, doubleplusungood, terrible, awful idea, and you should never do this under any circumstances. Anthropic will soon force you not to by literally refusing conversations that "break continuity" in this way and do anything but append new user messages at the end, but other providers at least appear to work. |
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| ▲ | bscphil a day ago | parent [-] | | I don't think I've seen opencode change the system prompt of a conversation, nor pi (though I have less experience there). Is there a specific scenario you're referring to where this could happen? | | |
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| ▲ | sausagefeet a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've only used CC and Pi and the point of pi is to use extensions. Luckily you can write them yourself pretty easily. I cannot get behind CC is the best harness. Once u switched to pi I knew I was never going back and occasionally I need to use CC for my subscription and find it unpleasant. CC is just this incoherent hodge podge of functionality that seems to have no vision. Subjective, of course. |
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| ▲ | closetheloopdev a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I switch harnesses regularly depending on the model providers, and I only use skills which are universally usable in any model and harness combination. I don't want to get tied to a particular model or harness, and skills provide me the freedom to do so. I can include any custom programs I need in a skill, and the SKILL.md file is just a doc of how to use those. It helps me save tokens and ensures determinism with repeated workflows since redoing a task is just calling a skill's program. I also load only skills that are necessary for a project. I don't want to pollute the context window with unneeded skills. | |
| ▲ | jpardoe a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I switched to Pi and it was great but I had to switch back to Claude Code purely for the subscription. Even with all the token efficiency I built into Pi it just wasn't nearly as good value as an Anthropic subscription. All open models ended up being more expensive so I switched to using an OpenAI subscription, which was better, but the OpenAI subscription is way less generous AND their models are behind. It became hard to justify. | | |
| ▲ | dingaling911 a day ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, what on earth are you doing where the open models are more expensive than the subs? When I was using anthropic subs, my "equivalent usage" was $6k/month. On the open models (specifically deepseek flash), it's < $100/month. Same work, maybe more. | | |
| ▲ | ac29 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The large open models (GLM-5.3, Kimi3, etc) are far more expensive than their large closed equivalents (Opus, Sol), because the closed models are far more subsidized when using subscriptions. If you see no difference at all in between Opus and Deepseek Flash for your work, that is great! Personally, I found the latter to be unusable for the projects I was working on. | | |
| ▲ | dingaling911 a day ago | parent [-] | | Can you describe what you are doing where comparing the two is problematic? For what it's worth, I use DS flash for statistical analysis, design (C++, Python), scripting, server maintenance. The same I used for Opus. |
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| ▲ | jpardoe a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > When I was using anthropic subs, my "equivalent usage" was $6k/month. Exactly, yeah. The subscriptions are insanely generous and far better value than open models. | | |
| ▲ | dingaling911 a day ago | parent [-] | | No, my point is I can get the same work done paying < $100/month with the open models. | | |
| ▲ | jpardoe a day ago | parent [-] | | I don’t think you can. | | |
| ▲ | dingaling911 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | You'd be surprised what you can accomplish if you don't just let the agents go wild. | | |
| ▲ | sausagefeet 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | An Anthropic sub is $200/mo, max. I only use open weight models, but the reality is that $200/mo Anthropic sub is way better value per dollar than an open weight model. I use open weight models for other reasons, but I have to limit myself to flash, and I am very controlling of which providers I use to keep the price down, and I still come out a little worse than Anthropic for my monthly bill. I don't know how you use your agents and what kind of work you are doing, but my experience is that in terms of pure output per dollar, you cannot beat an Anthropic subscription with an open weight model. | |
| ▲ | jpardoe 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm not saying you don't get good value out of your $100, I'm sure you're doing great, but I'm also absolutely certain if you followed the exact same workflow with an Anthropic subscription you would get better value. |
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| ▲ | galaxyLogic a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Luckily you can write them yourself pretty easily. According to the article you can ask Pi to write ssuch extensions, so you don't have to, right? | |
| ▲ | p2detar a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I use both but I’m fairly new to Pi. For now things that I notably miss in Pi are plan mode and subtasks. I was also a bit surprised that it doesn't have default permission mode (deny all) like CC. It’d make sense when using an open router model. But I haven’t used extensions that much yet, so who knows what features I’m overlooking. I don’t see myself dropping CC for now though. | | |
| ▲ | dlkmp a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Isn't plan mode just a "make a plan first, don't change anything yet" addendum to your prompt? Haven't tried Pi, but given it's famous extensibility, that should not be too hard to build. | |
| ▲ | sausagefeet 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Personally, I recommend installing the rpiv suite, I like it a lot because it adds a lot of structure, better than plan mode on CC, IMO. | |
| ▲ | dingaling911 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My base instructions for all harnesses say something like "when the user asks you to do something that seems like it would be complex, come up with a plan first." Works. | |
| ▲ | B4uler5 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you really want a “plan mode” you can ask Pi to add it. This is the strength of Pi. It isn’t opinionated far past excellent execution. Anything extra you can add yourself. You just ask whatever model you’re using to query the documentation included in the pi application and then its away. | |
| ▲ | Rebelgecko 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I've found that OMP strikes a good balance |
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| ▲ | tyre a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How much does pi cost you when you’re using 5.5 via API? I feel like the max CC plans are incredible value. | | |
| ▲ | flaburgan a day ago | parent [-] | | Why would you use it via the API? I personally don't use Pi but Zed, but Claude is plugged using ACP on my Pro plan. I would never pay the API prices that's way too expensive. | | |
| ▲ | jrmg a day ago | parent [-] | | How are you doing this? I was under the impression that using Pro or Max from any harness but Claude Code was clamped down upon and likely to result in a ban so haven’t pursued it. | | |
| ▲ | jrmg a day ago | parent | next [-] | | [Answering myself…] Huh, I guess not. You can still use harnesses/adapters that use ‘claude -p’ to connect behind the scenes. But the billing is extremely unclear, and it sounds like they use ‘more plan per token’ than just using Claude Code. The Support page is very unclear, mentioning that you now get an allowance of tokens (and not mentioning the Pro plan at all in that section), and also saying that they’re backing off on plans they previously announced in June without saying what those those plans were, or what the status quo before them was: https://support.claude.com/en/articles/15036540-use-the-clau... …and there’s also this GitHub issue showing that tokens are ‘more expensive’ when using `-p`: https://github.com/anthropics/claude-code/issues/97074 | |
| ▲ | tyre 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah this was also my impression, which is why I asked. Claude seems to think that the only possible path is piping through `claude -p` in the CLI, but Pi doesn't do that out of the box. There are extensions (e.g. opius) that do, and it's not clear if A\ will ban you for it. https://claude.ai/share/a1e4f4be-ef6a-4db1-a656-bddcf30540d0 | |
| ▲ | flaburgan a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Zed GUI allows you to do it it's very straightforward, you click on new Claude thread, subscription, your browser opens, you allow the access and that's it. | |
| ▲ | TranquilMarmot 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | https://zed.dev/docs/ai/external-agents In Zed, Claude over ACP is still using the Claude Code harness but the rendering is done in the editor. It works really well. |
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| ▲ | ghthor 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I use pi with zero extensions after they added MCP natively. I switched to pi the first time Claude decided to get itself stuck in a loop with a bunch of work trees, sub agents and unresolvable merge conflicts. I don’t want Claude deciding when to use sub agents and work worktrees. I also like using the same harness regardless of which model I want to use. |
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| ▲ | WildGreenLeave a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've been using claude-bridge [0] and pi-vcc [1] for compaction and it has been a complete life changer. I'm slowly phasing out my Anthropic use for Mistral but I've used it for months without issues. [0]: https://pi.dev/packages/pi-claude-bridge?name=claude-bridge
[1]: https://pi.dev/packages/@sting8k/pi-vcc?name=pi-vcc |
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| ▲ | nathanfig 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | That compactor does not use any LLM calls and you find it sufficient? I'm surprised that works well. | | |
| ▲ | selcuka 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It is lossless, and comes with a search tool (called pi-vss-recall). It summarises the context, but doesn't touch the full conversation history. At the end of compacted context, there is a small note that tells the LLM to use pi-vss-recall to search for a specific keyword if needed. | |
| ▲ | WildGreenLeave 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I tried it out thinking it would suck, but I've been compacting this way for over 6 months now and I am not going back. Somehow, magically, it works great for me at least! |
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| ▲ | selcuka 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Potential ban due to ToS violation Anthropic gives monthly API credits for Max and higher subscriptions, equivalent to the subscription cost (so you pay $100 for the Max plan, and you get the normal subscription usage, plus $100 worth of API credits each month). My understanding is you can use those credits with any harness because they are normal API credits that you can use with an API key. They won't last as long as the subscription itself (they are spent at API prices) but you can use at least use pi.dev with Anthropic models without violating the ToS. |
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| ▲ | josh_p 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I just want to point out that you’re allowed to use Claude-* models that aren’t a part of your subscription. For example, the ones hosted on openrouter. Anthropic insists your use of models hosted by them just go through API billing, which is more expensive. Don’t do sketchy things to use you sub with pi. That’ll get you banned. Claude models work fine on pi. I’m a happy user. |
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| ▲ | kcocoa a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| 6. A\ reduce model usage for non-CC client.
https://github.com/anthropics/claude-code/issues/97074 |
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| ▲ | estetlinus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I agree. They are probably solving problems we don’t know are problems, beyond UX (like caching). That’s one of the reasons I prefer CC over Pi. Codex is pretty nice too, with respect to UX. |
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| ▲ | misterderpie a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > 4. Cache related nuances (I mean, A\ regularly messes up with cache even in CC, their caching is non-trivial); I'd be curious to know the background around this. At work, I've used @anthropic/Opus 5.5 through Portkey with Pi, and ended up with $10 within less than 10 message exchanges, on a fairly trivial topic. OTOH, when using Claude Code directly with Opus 5.5, I basically spent $30 for a good back-and-forth across a full chat, reaching the point where CC kicked off compaction. |
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| ▲ | ody4242 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You can write your own compaction function for Pi, and you can even have different, domain specific compaction logic if you want. The default one is dumb, I agree. |
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| ▲ | dingaling911 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Regarding credentials, my base instructions shared across all agents and all harnesses is that all credentials are accessed through a specific powershell script and should never be shown or written to file. This seems to work with pi, opencode. |
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| ▲ | eli a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Using the Agent SDK to connect to Anthropic is an officially supported method and does not risk a ban. I use a cheap deepseek model for compaction on purpose since it costs a penny or two and does not use any of my Anthropic quota. |
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| ▲ | dash-44 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > they heavily use custom headers, hidden flags, and undocumented API features that affect models' behavior; This is exactly why you'd want to use Pi. All these flags and updates to claude code break so many workflows and give a different experience every time you use it. It's highly inconsistent and very annoying. |
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| ▲ | jeron 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| this is also my fear, after seeing anthropic yank access to openclaw users, they could just as easily restrict users from third party harnesses |