| ▲ | codedokode 10 hours ago |
| Egui is pretty bad idea. It uses "immediate mode" rendering which means whole window is redrawn on every mouse move. I ran PhotoCraft (built in Rust + egui) in a VM wihout a GPU and the UI felt like it was running on 3 fps. If you use egui, try running it without a GPU before releasing. Egui is definitely not what you want to use on a 4K screen. It is only good for tiny screens of embedded devices. Why there is no reactive UI that tracks all dependencies and redraws only what needs to be redrawn? (not React, it also re-calculates (but not redraws) everything on every change). Also why does it visually look like bad version of Telegram? And Telegram can run without a phone present. |
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| ▲ | d3Xt3r 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Why there is no reactive UI that tracks all dependencies and redraws only what needs to be redrawn? There's plenty of them. Slint, Floem, iced, Vizia, fltk etc. Slint and fltk in particular also exhibit excellent performance and very little resource usage even without a GPU. |
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| ▲ | ozgrakkurt 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What is the argument here? Basically every device has a GPU. Why is it bad on 4K? Did you measure anything in a real setup? |
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| ▲ | viraptor 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Basically every device has a GPU. Many VMs and remote desktops don't. (Or can't really make use of) | |
| ▲ | Barrin92 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >What is the argument here? it's an incredible waste of resources, especially at high resolutions, to redraw a Gui application like you would a videogame at 60 FPS. These immediate mode UI frameworks were made in particular for that case, to be embedded in real time software, not for a UI where the state is idle or changes only occasionally. | | |
| ▲ | piker 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | You only redraw when there’s interaction. In exchange you use basically no memory for state retention which frees up the real resource constraint. | | |
| ▲ | v1ne 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Redrawing the whole thing consumes resources. That's power and resources not available to other tasks. There is value in being clever with what you draw. |
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| ▲ | rixed 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The argument is that it's wasteful?
Even if I had a GPU, I'd rather use it to do inference for insurance rather than drawing a simple UI? Why do I have to state the obvious like that? |
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| ▲ | hridyaagrawal 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| eframe is reactive by default, so it only repaints on input/animation, mouse moves count as input technically though so you get a pass on hover |
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| ▲ | sexy_seedbox 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| PDFCraft works fine for me on a 4k screen connected to an older laptop with an integrated Intel graphics card, blazing fast and smooth. |
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| ▲ | txdv 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am using it on a 2017 intel macbook and its faster than anything else on that device |
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| ▲ | LoganDark 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Why there is no reactive UI that tracks all dependencies and redraws only what needs to be redrawn? Nowadays the focus seems to be on video game-style interfaces that redraw every frame. The justification for this is typically that computers are so fast they can now come up with the entire interface every frame, so why not take advantage of that and forget all this retained-mode complexity? They don't realize that this is a classic case of the developer's machine fallacy, where the developer has a machine so vastly more powerful than any of their users' that they produce a terrible experience for said users. This is also why games these days typically require upscaling even on 5090, because developers usually have that or something even more powerful and they think the bleeding edge is pushing even THAT machine to its knees. Developers should be testing their software on the most entry-level, bottom of the barrel Chromebooks from 2015, running the heaviest and most bloated operating system they can think of. If people still optimized their software for that, then maybe computers would still feel almost as fast as the Apple II from 1977. https://danluu.com/input-lag/ |
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| ▲ | codedokode 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | And obviously all computers have infinite capacity batteries to maintain game-level power consumption. | | |
| ▲ | SkiFire13 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Depending on what you're doing GPU accelerated rendering is more battery friendly than CPU rendering though. | | |
| ▲ | LoganDark 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Drawing the entire interface is more expensive than drawing only what changed, though. You don't have to give up the GPU for that. |
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| ▲ | LoganDark 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's actually a very good point, I haven't seen any care for power consumption from software developers in many many years. The only people who seem to still care about it are hardware developers like Valve and Apple. I admit I never thought about it myself either. I would figure that doing less work generally requires less power, but some developers are crazy and act like they own the whole CPU, generate tons of heat, stress out the cooling system etc. with multithreaded bullshit that did NOT need to be multithreaded. | | |
| ▲ | proneb1rd 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not sure why multi threading is a victim. It really depends. | | |
| ▲ | LoganDark 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It does indeed depend. Some multithreaded workloads will use the full logical processor count to pin every core and that can really suck on low-end systems. I think aside from balancing multithreading overhead, this is one of the reasons why some more advanced software (such as 7-Zip) lets you select the number of threads to use for a workload, even if you already know and accept that it'll be expensive until it's completed. Lots of multithreading things I come across as a developer have a default of something like 4 threads, or only use a certain fraction of logical cores up to a certain maximum, etc. because it's generally more polite not to always pin every core. |
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| ▲ | rixed 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Or are plugged into a world with infinite quantity of renewable energy. | | |
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| ▲ | fastball 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| React doesn't re-calc on every change either if you use memoization and such properly. |
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| ▲ | codedokode 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | To use memoization you must use immutable structures (otherwise React is unable to detect changes) which are a pain to use and are slow if not designed properly. Do not believe me, try designing for example an algorithm that accepts a huge immutable sorted list with keys, a large sorted list of bulk deletes/inserts and produces a new sorted list with minimum operations. I made 2 or 3 prototypes and they still are not good and not even working properly. In my book, a good UI framework simply attaches to a mutable model made of arbitrary objects, detect changes and displays it with minimum number of operations. Doesn't require to use any proxies or immutable data or store data in components. Shouldn't be difficult. Why nobody made it, I do not understand. | | |
| ▲ | asdf88990 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is incorrect. You don’t need to use immutable structures to have stable references which is what matters. Use context liberally instead of plumbing things through prop’s needlessly and you’re halfway there. |
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| ▲ | rtpg 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | React isn't immediate mode by my understanding. In my head it's retained mode + the diffing layer, which sounds the same but if you try to write an "immediate-mode" API (say, using hooks) in React you'll find yourself churning a lot. At least unless you use the magic React compiler that memo-izes everything correctly. |
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| ▲ | dejw 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| nothing stops you to render gui at 5 fps. most people won't notice |
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| ▲ | todo-laterx 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [flagged] |
