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▲ FartyMcFarter 2 hours ago

Awesome article. Nit:

> the average chess grandmaster during a classical game will analyze roughly the same number of moves as an amateur player, but they analyze only the most critical moves and do a better job with that analysis.

I don't buy this. I've seen GMs playing online while verbalizing their thought process (on twitch / youtube videos where they livestream their play), and they consider way more branches than I do, while also going deeper than I ever would on some branches. My top rating in lichess blitz is about 1900, not bad but way lower than a GM.

▲hisfraudulency a minute ago | parent | next [-]

There's an analog in machine chess. According to the research paper from 2017, AlphaZero considered ~10,000 moves per decision, 1,000x fewer than Stockfish at the time. h2h it beat Stockfish pretty badly.

▲imeanwhatdoikno 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am about 300 points higher and think this is roughly correct. In openings amateurs will actually analyze more since GMs just have hundreds of opening lines memorized many moves deep. Middlegame and endgame there're usually just 1-3 reasonable plans that are obvious to a GM (but not at all obvious to amateurs) with 1-3 initial moves each. So, again, probably about as many as I consider.

The only time when GM will definitely analyze more lines than an amateur is in a highly tactical position but that happens, again, maybe 1-3 times per typical game (tactics themselves will last several moves, but they would be largely calculated through at the beginning of the tactical melee).

▲Keyframe 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My rating is negative 1900. I was always bad at chess and never really gave it a chance tbh. I always wondered though where does the pattern matching stop and strategy starts or it's one and the same?

▲aurareturn an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Human brain can do calculations in the back of their head without realizing it. Verbalizing does not mean it's all they thought about.

▲jstanley an hour ago | parent [-]

But it does mean they thought about at least as much as they verbalised.

▲regularfry 33 minutes ago | parent [-]

Slightly difficult to disentangle is that they might be using the verbalisation as a way to explore depth, rubber-duck style, in a way that they wouldn't over the board.

▲a3w 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

an amateur player --> shouldn't an amateur player have an average ELO, i.e. be nearly as bad as me, who never wins at chess when someone even knows their ELO or is a bot above lowest difficulty level.

▲Galanwe an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Right, but the GMs you see online are often "super GMs". They are on a category of their own in the ultra tail.

▲FartyMcFarter an hour ago | parent [-]

No, I watch plenty of "regular" GMs, as well as some IMs and even FMs who all consider way more moves/positions than I do.

▲moi2388 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

I’m around 1800-1900 and they don’t consider more moves or positions than I do at all. It’s just that their analysis is correct and mine is not even close.

I actually don’t know this for sure, I should say that they don’t verbalise more moves than I think about. It’s plausible and perhaps even likely that they have a lot of moves or positions they do touch on but immediately discard so don’t even verbalise.

▲moron4hire an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It makes sense. The space of moves is a tree. If you're doing a breadth-first search and a grandmaster is doing a more depth-oriented search with heuristics for pruning low value branches, then the same total number of moves could be considered, but the grandmaster is reaching the better moves before you.

▲tarsierscripter an hour ago | parent [-]

No, a grandmaster can also consider moves way faster than an amateur. Watch Hikaru Nakamura solve chess puzzles [1]. He has already solved the puzzle and moved on to the next one before an amateur can even see the pieces on the board.

[1] https://youtu.be/4EfSymvT59M

▲ketzu an hour ago | parent [-]

1940s to 1980s papers (the source of the claims) might think "amateur" means something different from people today. (they probably mean club chess players)

▲Filligree an hour ago | parent [-]

Yes? Amateur means someone who does a thing for recreation, as opposed to for money.

▲ketzu 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

It seemed to me that in the chess community, average club players are usually considered (much) stronger than the average online player. (Especially because of the much larger number of lower skill players online.)

So if you measure amateurs via club players (=what people might have considered chess amateurs before), that might give you a different result from the average online player (=what people might consider average amateurs today).

It is much easier to imagine the 1600 FIDE OTB player doing 20-40 positional evaluations than the 1200 random chess.com scrub (eg me) doing the same.

▲jackmott42 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah I would like to see where that factoid comes from. Maybe it means they explore as many branches from the root position as an amateur, but they explore each branch way deeper and more accurately

▲sandworm101 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

GMs also have access to a greater number of memorized situations. Regardless of whether they are conscious of it or not, they have previously analyzed so many moves that they can cut off branches they just know instinctively to be dead ends. Machines could do this, directly reference a massive dataset of precomputed board positions, but that isn't considered a proper chess engine... despite the fact that human GMs do use such techniques.