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▲ pbohun 5 hours ago

This is what happens when you over-optimize and over-automate. You should just be able to plug those freezers into power and turn a knob to set the temperature. There is no reason for them to ever have an internet connection.

▲kvdveer 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The temperatures of these freezers need to have a centralised audit trail, to comply with foodchain regulations. While such an audit trail could be built without Internet, Internet seems like an obvious solution.

The true problem doesn't lie with Internet access, it lies with low quality software.

▲MostlyStable 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The internet seems like the easy solution, not the obvious solution. For years, we have used the internet for things that didn't need it because it was easier and it seemed safe enough. I think that the coming months and years are going to see a lot of companies burned by that decision and scrambling to undo it.

The fact was that it was never safe, it was never secure, but that taking advantage of those problems was hard, and generally not monetarily worth it, meant we ignored the issues. That's no longer the case.

As for low quality software, the floor for the quality that internet connected software needs to have is now dramatically higher than the quality that non-connected software needs. I think that in many applications, it may no longer be economically worth it, or maybe even possible at all, to hit the necessary quality.

▲f6v 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think it's a tough question.

First, I don't think people will give up the convenience of having instant access to the information.

Second, hackers are way ahead in terms of using AI. But it doesn't mean that it's going to stay that way. AI is going to be used for cyber security more. The implication is that the operating costs will be higher. In this case, it will make your groceries more expensive.

▲cyanydeez 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

isn't it closer to the internet is owned by business interests, even though most of it was built out by the public and it was just slowly moved into the hands of people who don't care particularly about how it's secured.

▲MSFT_Edging 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> it lies with low quality software.

Nearly all software is low quality software. The programmers at the fridge company are likely 4 underpaid engineers in Pennsylvania or some other equivalent.

Saying the problem here is bad code is like saying the problem with gun violence is humans are too squishy to deflect bullets.

▲xscott 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The audit trail (status in general) could be read only. Enabling remote defrost (control in general) is an optional convenience which requires better quality software.

▲Griffinsauce an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Those regulations need an update.

And the simplest solution is to air gap these systems, then figure out how everything else should work.

In NL we use paper and pencils for elections because it makes fraud incredibly hard. It makes the process harder as well but the baseline is that it breaks nation-scale attacks. Why this level of thinking isn't applied to *our foodchain* is beyond me.

▲axus 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What if high quality software exists, but the supermarkets did not pay to install the last 10 years of updates?

▲FeteCommuniste 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So then you have a connection going one way (freezer to data-logging endpoint) and not the other.

▲hobo123 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You should only ever have hardware visible in the internal network, no need to put them on the Internet at all.

▲_boffin_ 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

These need to have an audit trail. Making it centralized is an addition, no?

▲vatsachak 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Have the freezer connected to an air gapped grocery local server. Fixed

▲whatthejesus 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The simple plug + knob is the right solution. It’s the most resilient.

The auditors should have their own devices separate from the temperature control to monitor them. All it needs is a few sensors, temp, humidity, etc.

No need for complicated cloud this-and-that nor air-gapping a grocery chain. Keep it simple.

▲fy20 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm not sure about freezers (I guess there was no monitoring) but when I worked for a large UK supermarket chain in the 2000s this was how the POSs worked.

When I first started credit cards were not taken as online payments, the system just stored your card details and the amount. That was sent to server in the back office, which collected all the data, then every night it would make a dial up or ISDN connection to the head office and send all the data there.

▲pixl97 4 hours ago | parent [-]

>the system just stored your card details and the amount.

At least with CC's this would get your account cancelled now.

▲iririririr 2 hours ago | parent [-]

most issuers still have this as an option.

▲AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which is easier, getting the audit trail from non-internet-connected devices, or keeping all the devices patched?

The right answer isn't forever patching freezer software. The answer is either to not have them on the internet, or to have something in front of them, and keep that thing very up-to-date. (Or maybe several layers of "something" in front of them.)

▲chasd00 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Just keep them read-only, if a freezer need to be defrosted send an SMS to the store manager with the message “go hit the defrost button”.

▲hmokiguess 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

▲Delphiza 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The reason is because the optimisation and automation means that there are no staff in the stores qualified to 'turn the knob' (and it is more complicated than that). What is the store to do, employ full-time knob-turners? They won't even pay for the uniforms of shelf packers or give them two toilet breaks on a shift.

▲baobabKoodaa an hour ago | parent [-]

> What is the store to do, employ full-time knob-turners?

How often do you think the knobs would need to be turned? You think someone or something is constantly fiddling with the temperature knobs of each individual freezer?

▲staminade 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's useful to have a central monitoring system, so you can detect if a particular device fails so you can dispatch someone to fix it, move the stock elsewhere, etc. Of course, such systems can also be weaponised against you, as this proves.

▲atmavatar 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Monitoring doesn't require anything more than read-only access to fridge data.

Ironically, were the monitoring system competently made, not only would it have been unable to cause this problem, but it would have also been able to alert about it in time to prevent significant loss.

▲wuliwong 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not saying I think the benefits outweigh the risks but to say there is no reason is to just be willfully ignorant.

▲beached_whale 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

even with remote access, they shouldn't have controls that allow for unsafe conditions.

▲stronglikedan 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's more just what happens when you don't have sensible monitoring and/or incident response.

> There is no reason for them to ever have an internet connection.

You can't know this.

▲embedding-shape 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There is no reason for them to ever have an internet connection.

How do you remote control the temperature without having any remote connection to them?

Have you worked in a small rural grocery store ever? You speak confidently about what they need/don't need, but you fail to account for a very basic use case, making me unsure if you actually know what you're talking about or not.

▲boredhedgehog 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Why do they need to change the temperature? I thought it was supposed to be constant.

▲kube-system 3 hours ago | parent [-]

For the same reason any of them are adjustable? Different usage scenarios, different types of contents?

▲nemomarx 2 hours ago | parent [-]

If you're changing the contents and need to change the temperature, shouldn't someone at the local store be there changing the contents?

I'm not even sure of a scenario where remote control from off site is faster or more convenient. I could see a managers office wanting a connection to them maybe.

▲kube-system 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Monitoring for compliance is almost certainly easier to manage remotely, which is probably why they're connected in the first place. I would guess control was likely a nice value add. e.g. so someone could respond to an alert remotely

▲ 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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