| ▲ | jordanb a day ago |
| An interesting component of the switching off of POTS is that the quality of service requirements are different. POTS is regulated to require the phone company to maintain a certain legal quality of service with negative consequences for failing to do so. Meanwhile, cell phone and VOIP services are "best effort." The phone company put a pretty huge amount of effort into maintaining QoS (Lily Tomlin jokes aside) because there were consequences for not doing so. It makes sense that they would prefer to shed that responsibility. |
|
| ▲ | ssl-3 a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| The phone company was amazingly reliable, at least in the States. In all of my decades I recall only one telephone outage one time, at home. A truck (or something) had snagged a line feeding the house. It was repaired less than an hour after reporting it. And I'm nostalgic for that kind of reliability, but it's gone now. I was chatting with a tech who was installing a new county 911 system a few weeks ago. There was a time, not so long ago, when 911 had been robust: Fixed circuits to multiple different areas (to walk around network issues). Slow, redundant, robust analog modems on leased lines for caller data and call control. Eventually, things like PRI or T1. Either way, there were great racks of redundant gear at the 911 PSAP for managing calls. But now? It's just VOIP over the public Internet. 911 calls get the same not-special class of service that posting this comment does. The huge gear-filled racks are gone. In their place is a router and a switch, and a collection of dispatch PCs. (There's a backup IP connection, of course. This backup connection uses cellular data.) |
| |
| ▲ | catlifeonmars a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I was going to point out VoLTE as an example of a system which runs over IP but still retains a lot of the concepts from circuit switched days. In theory (if you’re a network operator), you could expose dedicated bearer provisioning with QoS guarantees for applications to build on top of. I guess my point is that you can have tighter QoS control if you can get off the public internet and go through carrier IPX instead. | | |
| ▲ | g_p 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | VoLTE and SIP do indeed retail a lot of the concepts of circuit switched. The challenge is that now you have the complexity of (seemingly invariably) a Telco managing a k8s stack on an OS they don't understand, and which has hundreds of CVEs per month they aren't patching. The failure modes of VoLTE/SIP are also a load more complex than CS domain issues - IMS interop issues and XML parsing delights await! So I guess it's not only about getting off the internet - there is a real shift in complexity in these more modern stacks too. | | |
| ▲ | catlifeonmars 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You are not wrong about the complexity of modern stacks. However, VoLTE predates k8s adoption in most telcos and the physical network appliance == NF model is still alive and well, so it’s not necessarily a fair comparison. You’re also right about the added complexity of SIP/RTP (let’s agree not to talk about MMS lol). | |
| ▲ | wil421 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That’s not true at all. Yes to the k8s but at least at my work we are scanned to death as soon as a new IP comes up on our network. Plus we have golden image updates at least every 30 days. We couldn’t even get SNMP traps out of our virtual firewalls because of “security”. Containers are 10x better than monitoring and supporting some 30 years old switch in a central office that consumes more power than my cul de sac. |
| |
| ▲ | ssl-3 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think you just described how the PSTN used to run, except this way has more layers. | | |
| |
| ▲ | 6510 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Back in the days, every time I pealed open a bundle of those paper wrapped wires I had to stop and be amazed how amazingly reliable it was. EVERY TIME https://www.facebook.com/groups/telecomarchaeology/posts/354... This just doesn't look like something that will work wonderfully for 80+ years. | | |
| ▲ | ssl-3 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | That stuff is lead-sheathed, isn't it? I haven't ever gotten into it myself, but I had a DSL connection that would go wonky on sunny evenings due to an increase in reception of a nearby AM radio transmitter that drowned out the useful signals. (Amusingly, the hardware on my end provided charts that pinned down the frequency perfectly.) That circuit had lead sheathed cable for part of its path. After one call to retentions, I had an AT&T convention at my house once or twice per week. They were all in uniforms, driving fancy logo'd trucks. They all failed to make it work correctly. Until one day, some dude with facial piercings who was dressed like me in jeans and a black tshirt showed up. I don't know what back office they pulled this guy out of, but he insisted that this was his problem now, that he was the most qualified person to correct it, and that he would be working on it until it was identified and fixed, and that he would begin as soon as he went back to get a bucket truck. I don't know what all he got into. He worked until well after dark. And then he came back to the door and pronounced with great confidence that he had found an issue with some old lead sheathed cable and corrected it, and that this would absolutely resolve my problem. And it did. 10/10 stability after that. (Shoulda kept his contact info. He'd have been a good one to hire.) |
| |
| ▲ | anon7000 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, going over the public internet gives you a pretty huge amount of redundancy. It’s common for individual companies to have outages, or one small neighborhood to have an issue, but has there ever been a global internet outage? | | |
| ▲ | cowlevel 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Only your neighbourhood needs to have an outage for your neighbourhood to have an outage. Nobody's saying it's okay if 911 goes down as long as it's still up for some people in the world. | |
| ▲ | manarth 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Perhaps not completely global, but there have been some extremely widespread outages (usually from DNS or BGP misconfiguration). - 2019: Verizon/BGP routing issue - 2021: Verizon/FIOS routing issue - 2021: Fastly CDN outage - 2021: Comcast: San Francisco backbone outage - 2021: Akamai: Edge DNS outage - 2022: Rogers telecom routing issue - 2023: Cloudflare: DNSSec expired certificates triggered an outage - 2025: Cloudflare: core proxy outage | |
| ▲ | Angostura 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It doesn’t give you what POTS used to give you - several days of battery backup that kept the phone system working in the event of power failure. I remember the huge racks of lead-acid batteries in the old exchange buildings | | |
| ▲ | ssl-3 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | The batteries were part of the trick, for sure. All of the telco gear ran on -48v, and was connected in parallel with the batteries. In this way, grid power could come and go rapidly and the switches wouldn't even notice. There there was no handoff, or switchover time. The chemical batteries just changed from being held at a steady SoC to being discharged, which is something they can do without complaint or interruption. KISS. After that, at least for the AT&T-built central office down the road from where I grew up, the generators would engage and keep things going indefinitely (or until fuel ceased to flow). |
| |
| ▲ | ButlerianJihad 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There was that time when .com and .net were corrupted for 4 hours, and the death of Michael Jackson crashed Twitter, AIM, and Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_outage#List |
|
|
|
| ▲ | tyrabound a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s really one of the biggest failures on all of our societies that there are not only clear QoS requirements but also clear and strictly enforced consequences, including for politicians and their lies and people having to pay for the things they support. |
|
| ▲ | marcindulak a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In some places in Europe, the home internet ADSL technology on the copper wires, the same as used for PSTN phones, delivers higher speed (realistically an order of a few Mbps, stable) compared to congested LTE/4G mobile networks (typical 1-3 Mbps). The mobile network providers don't guarantee minumim speeds in the contracts, and customers (typically older people) that move from ADSL to LTE/4G, are left with a degraded service without a possibility to object. |
| |
| ▲ | hdgvhicv a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Copper dsl remains working just fine - my last place was copper on a cable through the air and was 30 down 8 up. Not bad on wiring installed in the 1960s No phone signal of course. | | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes. This switch off doesn't somehow miraculously delete the copper cables, it just switches off a particular service offered on those cables. However the service you're describing is not ADSL, in which the DSL endpoint is in the exchange where all of an area's copper cables met but instead VDSL where the nearby local cabinet processes the DSL signals and is itself provided with fibre. With VDSL the copper cable is maybe moving your Internet 100 metres, with ADSL it might be several kilometres, and so ADSL can't do 30 down 8 up, the most it's going to try is something like 12 down 2 up. Edited to add: In principle you could imagine a technology which goes "Wait a minute, this is a direct exchange line and the exchange is one block from here, I'll try 100Mbps" but ADSL is not that technology. What we actually do is either put VDSL in the exchange and give these people VDSL or run actual fibre to them if it's perceived that they'd be willing to pay for faster Internet. A friend lives a short distance from our exchange and bleated for years about ADSL being all that was available until (this is years ago now) I got sick of it and made him fill out the precise line diagnostic and of course it says yes he can have VDSL. Beliefs can be sticky, he probably checked the very first time he whined about it, and then five years later he was still running off that no-longer true belief. | | |
| ▲ | cowlevel 25 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | ADSL is that technology. It just can't achieve 100Mbps. But everyone knows that ADSL goes faster the shorter your line is. | |
| ▲ | ahartmetz 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Worth noting that VDSL2 can do up to about 200 Mbps downstream, which makes xDSL able to hang on for a while. | |
| ▲ | hdgvhicv 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I didn’t say adsl. And the copper was about 900m. I’ve got some adsl speed at work in some location which are limited to under 8/1, which is fine as they are replacing isdn (which is also being turned off), service is sites. I assume it’s a similar technology to adsl. From what I can tell, dsl of any type didn’t really take off in America. | | |
| ▲ | jsmith45 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > From what I can tell, dsl of any type didn’t really take off in America. VDSL was the core of the AT&T U-verse offerings in the US for a good decade perhaps a little more. This was marketed as a full cable replacement, as it included Internet, TV (including the normal cable channels), and optionally landline phone (over ip, but without some of the normal headaches of VOIP, as AT&T could treat this more like a digitized POTS line on their side, much like the normal pots lines they digitized behind the scenes). There were also some other smaller deployments here and there, but that seemed to be the biggest one in the US. ADSL/ADSL2/ADSL2+ certainly did exist, but to work well you need to be relatively close to the local exchange, needed copper wires in good condition, etc. It was offered fairly widely, like by most companies offering phone service over copper lines, but because the quality could vary quite significantly depending on things not obvious to the purchaser, it tended to get a bad-rap. If you tried it once, but was unluck enough to have it not work well, you would write off the tech, and tell all your firends not to bother, and go go with the cable offering. For me personally, in its heyday, ADSL2 beat cable hands down, as in that time frame cable was only using a tiny fraction of its bandwidth to provide internet service, and only a few feeds coming out of the local office, so the amount of oversubscription was insane, and amounted to basically fraud, as you could only ever get anywhere near your advertised speed at like 4 am. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | userbinator a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | compared to congested LTE/4G mobile networks ...which will get even more congested as people continue to migrate to using a network designed for mobility for devices which don't even move. Imagine thousands of devices, most of which never move, sharing one WiFi access point. I don't think regulation is the answer, but maybe a "mobile networks are for mobility" awareness campaign might help fix this stupidity. | | |
| ▲ | marcindulak a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not that much about WiFi access point, it's about the provider infrastructure congestion (cell towers), and how they prioritize 4G/5G. They appear to prioritize 5G more, and they are happy to sell 5G to people who've just bought a poor speed 4G from them. In some locations fiber connections are not available, the LTE/4G/5G is the only home internet connection that mobile companies offer. You don't know what speeds you get before you buy the specific provider service. Not many people will experiment with various providers or alternative technologies. | | | |
| ▲ | supertrope a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | US providers used to have cellular data caps on their mainstream plans to hold down usage and therefore their spending on capacity upgrades. At $10/GB people learn fast to limit their usage, far faster than any ad campaign. Providers now have more capacity and fixed wireless is their way of monetizing idle capacity. They don't allow fixed wireless sign ups in congested areas. | |
| ▲ | pseudohadamard 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | An awareness campaign won't help. The problem is that people get some shitty router/AP provided for free by their ISP which they set up at the far end of the house on the same channel as fifty other shitty ISP-provided routers in range and then complain about their TikTok videos stalling. Once they switch to 4G all their problems go away, so they stay with 4G because that "works" and WiFi "doesn't work". |
|
|
|
| ▲ | BenjiWiebe a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Our POTS provider here (Kansas) seems to have given up recently. Over the last 2 years we've had to call in to get repairs done many times, and I don't know if we ever did in the 20 years before that. And in the last couple months, our phones regularly quit working completely and we have to call in and go through lots of troubleshooting steps before the tech comes out and fixes the line half a mile away for the 10th time, only for it to quit working in another week or three. |
|
| ▲ | Namidairo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > An interesting component of the switching off of POTS is that the quality of service requirements are different. POTS is regulated to require the phone company to maintain a certain legal quality of service with negative consequences for failing to do so. Yeah we've had a similar thing happen in Australia. Most VoIP services require you to either tick a box or verbally waive one's rights to said requirements in regards to reliability and fault rectification timelines. However, there hasn't been too much of an issue with transition to VoIP here, apart from the unreliability of some services they're being run on, and keeping emergency contact details up to date. The latter resulting in fines for providers here and there. Mostly, it's just pushed mobile/cell services to the forefront, along with reliability concerns during major outages. (There have been a couple major outages to cellular/mobile connectivity where access to emergency services have been lost) Surveyed usage of landlines for calls at home is about 12% here, down from about 54% in 2017.[1] [1] https://www.acma.gov.au/publications/2026-02/report/communic... |
| |
| ▲ | pseudohadamard 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | > However, there hasn't been too much of an issue with transition to VoIP here, apart from ... providers bricking huge numbers of perfectly-good phones, in some cases brand new devices, because ACMA decided they weren't worthy of making emergency calls. | | |
|
|
| ▲ | lokar a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That’s too bad, in California it’s all the same: https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/industries-and-topics/internet-and-p... |
| |
| ▲ | dhosek a day ago | parent [-] | | “Best efforts” is a legal term. Its definition can vary from state to state, but it is not just, “oh we tried, sorry, lol” and it defines the highest standard of implementation in all jurisdictions. | | |
| ▲ | dhosek a day ago | parent [-] | | Best efforts sits at the top of the efforts hierarchy in contract law. It asks for more than “reasonable efforts,” which calls for sensible steps, and more than “commercially reasonable efforts,” which measures conduct against industry norms. A party bound by a best efforts clause is expected to exhaust available avenues, not just pursue the obvious ones. The clause acknowledges that success depends on variables nobody fully controls: market conditions, regulatory approvals, third-party cooperation. So instead of promising a result, the party promises effort of a particular quality. Courts then evaluate that effort after the fact, which is where things get complicated. From https://fedlaws.org/best-efforts-standard-in-contracts-ucc-r... | | |
| ▲ | jordanb a day ago | parent [-] | | "Best effort" is below rigorous QoS specifications though. Saying "99.999% of calls must complete" with a rigorous definition of completion is different than saying "best effort". | | |
| ▲ | cowlevel 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Most things in life and law are not rigorous. Not everything is low-level systems engineering. If the law was "99.999% of calls must complete" someone would find one that didn't complete, then buy several phones, make that call over and over, and sue the company. |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | supertrope a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The economic incentives are different. AT&T was the monopoly phone company subject to rate-of-return regulation. The more they spent on CAPEX the more they could raise prices. So naturally they spared no expense in maximizing the reliability (99.999% uptime) and quality of their network. Then cellphones and the Internet happened (as much as they fought it). Why invest in a dying industry? Now phones are used to send picture messages and get addicted to watching one short form video after another. People value mobility and having one phone bill over toll quality voice. People get much more annoyed at "All circuits are busy. Please try again later." errors or 5 cents per minute than mushy call quality. Making phone calls from a car or walking on the street is always going to be noisier than at home. |