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| ▲ | anoojb a day ago | parent | next [-] | | At what point do citizens become more engaged in civics? Apparently cameras recording outside their door is an insufficient catalyst. | | |
| ▲ | 1shooner a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This is unfounded pessimism. The genesis of the article is civic engagement that rejected Flock, prompting elected officials, whose decision is then being supported by the police department. | | |
| ▲ | wahnfrieden a day ago | parent [-] | | Thread you’re in: > They've even been caught putting them back up or re-enabling them in places where the contract has been canceled. | | |
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| ▲ | Avicebron a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People need to see their lives improve materially within a reasonable period of time before they will trust politics again I would wager. I don't think people aren't voting due to apathy, they aren't voting because they don't trust the system. | | |
| ▲ | kmeisthax a day ago | parent | next [-] | | You're describing Russia, not America. In America voter turnout is at record highs, people are protesting loud and visibly, and "Flock camera" is a cultural byword for oppressive dragnet surveillance. I don't think people have connected the dots between Flock and Ring yet, but it's only a matter of time. | | | |
| ▲ | dexterdog a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Isn't that a part of apathy? | | |
| ▲ | Avicebron a day ago | parent [-] | | Depends on how you frame it I suppose. If your experience is that every candidate in the last 20+ years has been a different flavor of awful for the average jane you could say it's zen-like acceptance. | | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ a day ago | parent [-] | | And the person making my coffee picked their nose three minutes before hand, my food is covered in various feces picked up during transportation, etc, etc. Life is accepting that reality is messy without giving up food, treats, or democracy. | | |
| ▲ | melbournesky 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Ahh yes, we just accept the rich get richer. They have all the money and therefore are gods chosen people. How about we cook them in ovens :) see how long they last claiming their system is the best. Maybe we could brand a few with usery across their foreheads. | | |
| ▲ | blooalien 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | > They have all the money and therefore are gods chosen people. If you listen to their cult members, they're just gods themselves. |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | antonvs a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The problem is that they are the system. If they sit back and expect someone else to fix it for them, they get what they deserve. | | |
| ▲ | imthatsteve a day ago | parent [-] | | Lol the real problem is the duopoly. Ah this republican sucks i have to vote democrat ah this democrat wants to allow sexually deviant teachers to castrate my children and then call cps if i object so ig i have to vote republican. Ah this republican wants to make everything illegal to fill their private prisons for more slave labor. Ig ill vote democrat. When you have two choices and the rich decide what those choices are they will always ensure than half the population hates one of the choices and the other half hate the other one and then you vote based on which candidate you hate the least which means the rich always get what they want and you always get screwed. If you ever want anything to change then you need to treat both parties like the parasitic treasonous scum that they are and make it clear to all americans that anyone who puts a party before their nation is a traitor. Then you vote for actual people, not a party, not whoever your favorite celebrity was paid to endorse. IF YOU WANT TO VOTE, FIRST YOU LEARN THE CANDIDATES, THEN YOU LEARN THE POLICIES THEY PROPOSE, THEN YOU CHALLENGE THOSE POLICIES WITH THE BEST STEELMAN YOU CAN FIND. only then should you even consider voting. But thats way too much responsibility for americans. They prefer to be given a binary choice, heads or tails their both the same except one fucks you left the other fucks you right, unless you happen to belong to the class of people that own the politicians in which case you dont actually care which way the election goes because you paid both sides so you win no matter what. |
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| ▲ | mcmcmc a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you not count people cutting down and smashing flock cams as being engaged? | | |
| ▲ | buildsjets a day ago | parent [-] | | I am not impressed by the destruction of easily replaced obsolete hardware. I will consider people as engaged when they start cutting down and smashing the corporate executives who force these bad ideas on us. | | |
| ▲ | imthatsteve a day ago | parent | next [-] | | That is something i can really get behind, dont assasinate politicians thats a waste of time. You have to put the fear of god into these evil corporations. The ceo of flock should regularly wake up to find a guillotine sitting in his front yard. Same goes for all the c-suite bankers who walked away from 2008 with multi million dollar bonuses. Those banks should have been nationalized or auctioned off and those executives should have gone to jail and had all their assets confiscated to help pay for the bailout. Im not advocating the use of the guilotines yet mind you, its just a little reminder for now. | | |
| ▲ | krapp a day ago | parent [-] | | We have to use them once in a while otherwise the bastards will catch on. |
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| ▲ | mcmcmc a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Okay you first, see how it worked for Luigi Mangione |
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| ▲ | drewbeck a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There is no single point, instead there’s a build up of actions just like you see in this case. I’m curious what else you’re waiting on. What evidence will be sufficient for you that, yes, citizens are engaged in civics? | |
| ▲ | lesostep 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The whole contract cancellation started because citizens engaged in civics. Town meetings are happening right now, people are already engaged. If you want to see the pressure raise, you should go to your local one. | |
| ▲ | internet2000 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We're so, so far off from that point. | | |
| ▲ | natebc a day ago | parent [-] | | except for, you know the city in TFA. And Asheville, NC. I'm sure there's more but not enough for sure. |
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| ▲ | BobbyTables2 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Any give up free next-day shipping? | |
| ▲ | close04 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ring cameras recording outside people’s doors are what catalyzed the installation of more surveillance. After all people can’t complain one camera but not another when they all have the claimed justification of safety and security. | | |
| ▲ | antonvs a day ago | parent [-] | | You absolutely can complain about Flock and other such cameras over Ring. Ring cameras are privately owned, installed on private property, by the choice of the property owner. Data sharing is under the customer's control unless a judicial warrant is involved. Flock cameras are a completely different situation. They're installed on public property, data sharing controls are an utter shitshow, and they give police the ability to do unconstitutional dragnet-style fishing for crime and even pre-crime, i.e. "suspicious patterns of behavior". Equating the two is a complete misunderstanding of what's happening, but companies like Flock rely on that kind of ignorance to push their product. | | |
| ▲ | ozlikethewizard a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Its insincere to act like the control of data through ring doorbells and similar products are in anyway customer controlled. Even if we ignore when the agreed protocols have been actively ignored ( i.e., employees being able to access unauthorized: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51048406), the amount of control over the data the customer has is very little but most are simply unaware of this. Uninformed consent is not a thing. Also pertinent imo:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49191005 Surveillance infrastructure is surveillance infrastructure, who is supposed to "own" it is irrelevant. Unless consumers own the hardware, the service, and where the data is stored, they do not own any of it. | | |
| ▲ | mrandish a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Surveillance infrastructure is surveillance infrastructure, who is supposed to "own" it is irrelevant. Unless consumers own the hardware, the service, and where the data is stored, they do not own any of it. You and the poster you're replying to are making related but separate points which partially overlap yet are both valid within a certain scope. It can be simultaneously true that: * The fact a consumer has to 'make a choice' to install a Ring camera does make the situation materially different and better than Flock in a civil rights and property rights sense. * The fact that most consumers are unaware (or don't care) that the Ring (or similar device) click-through EULA can permit all manner of invasive outcomes which are bad and companies can easily ignore whatever the EULA permits with (probably) little consequence, resulting in even worse privacy outcomes. Bottom line: Judged by net outcomes in practice, Ring-like cloud cameras can be every bit as bad for privacy as Flock cameras. Judged through the lens of 'balance of rights and privileges between state and individual', Flock is even worse then a camera installed by a citizen on private property. | |
| ▲ | antonvs a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're reducing a spectrum to a binary, with all the errors that always come along with that. Flock is at one rather extreme end of that spectrum, at least in the context of a democratic country with some civil liberties. They literally seem to be breaking laws in order to achieve their goals. Ring occupies a point pretty far from that. All of these issues can be addressed with government laws and regulations, and hopefully will be. But the laws needed to constrain what Ring is doing are nowhere near what will be needed to constrain Flock. > Unless consumers own the hardware, the service, and where the data is stored, they do not own any of it. This is trivially false. But if you live in the US and take its legal and regulatory environment as an unchangeable fact of life, I can see how you might think that. | |
| ▲ | tomnipotent a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Flock gives law enforcement privileged access to footage outside of their jurisdiction with actual features that support mass surveillance, like tracking cars across state lines. Ring footage requires a court order, warrant, or subpoena outside of customer consent and access per legal process is generally limited to a small subset of footage. That's a big difference. Only one of these two supports commercial dragnet. | | |
| ▲ | kergonath a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Ring footage requires a court order, warrant, or subpoena outside of customer consent and access per legal process is generally limited to a small subset of footage Weren’t there regular scandals about local law enforcement regularly accessing Ring footage without the owner’s agreement or knowledge? Ring absolutely is a surveillance tool that can be used without oversight. See here for example: https://stateofsurveillance.org/articles/corporate/amazon-ri... | | |
| ▲ | tomnipotent 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > without the owner’s agreement or knowledge All access required user consent, other than a dozen very limited examples that were discovered in which Ring employees provided footage without user consent or a court order (which is negligible in the grand scheme of things). So no, Ring has not been abused by the police as much as Flock. |
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| ▲ | NetMageSCW a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | That is not true for Ring. | | |
| ▲ | tomnipotent a day ago | parent [-] | | Can you provide examples of Ring giving carte blanche access to government agencies, local or federal, without legal process? Do you have any examples of Ring being used to track an individual across vast distances? Or of anything you could consider mass surveillance? | | |
| ▲ | kergonath a day ago | parent [-] | | You are moving the goal posts. No single Flock camera can do that, either. Instead, what they offer is a network of cameras they can access remotely and they can use with facial recognition. And yes, this can be used to track people over long distances or across states. There are precedents with Ring being very cozy with police departments, e.g. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/police-can-get-y... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/01/amazon-ring-stop... And many more over the years (all the way until February of this year, when they cancelled a deal with Flock). Amazon is not a company to trust. | | |
| ▲ | tomnipotent 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You're missing the forest for the trees. These two systems do not allow for even remotely the same levels of abuse. It's not possible to use Ring for mass surveillance with as little effort as Flock supports. > No single Flock camera can do that What does that matter? Flock allows government agencies to enter a license plate number and find all instances of that vehicle across all participating customers. This is not technically possible with Ring. > this can be used to track people Prove it. Find one example. I can find hundreds of examples for Flock. Both articles you linked to prove my point - access to footage was accessed by government agencies with consent from users, in which case a warrant was not needed. Read more than the misleading headlines and you would have figured that out for yourself, god forbid you let facts get in away of your bias. There were an small number of incidents in which Ring used an emergency situation to share 11 instances of footage without a warrant, which isn't even worth talking about since they've since closed that hole. > Amazon is not a company to trust. This has nothing to do with trusting Amazon and everything to do with false equivalence. | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | close04 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Data sharing is under the customer's control unless a judicial warrant is involved. The police routinely has access to Ring footage. The people who installed them give that access. Occasionally Amazon did it too even without user consent. I’m equating the 2 because those people contribute to the internalizing of the surveillance status. When people walk down the street they are filmed by dozens of cameras and they are starting to expect this everywhere. Flock is “another one”. Flock would have had an uphill battle in a society where private surveillance is unacceptable. When it becomes totally normal for others to use their own private (not so private n the cloud) surveillance footage of public spaces against you, Flock stops raising people’s internal alarm bells. Why do you think Flock is big exactly in the society that was told private surveillance of public space is perfectly fine and even expected? | |
| ▲ | pmlnr a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Ring cameras are privately owned, installed on private property, by the choice of the property owner. ... recording the street, meaning https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-the-u... applies in the UK: --- If your CCTV system captures images of people outside the boundary of your private domestic property – for example, from neighbours’ homes or gardens, shared spaces, or from public areas – then the GDPR and the DPA will apply to you. You will need to ensure your use of CCTV complies with these laws. If you do not comply with your data protection obligations you may be subject to appropriate regulatory action by the ICO, as well as potential legal action by affected individuals. --- However, as with anything in the UK, it's virtually impossible to enforce it on sh*thead neighbours recording you with their Chinese cloud enabled devices 24/7. |
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| ▲ | matheusmoreira a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Fines are already nothing but a cost to them. Cyberpunk is now... | |
| ▲ | apical_dendrite a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wasn't this basically Uber's model? They just ignored any local regulation they didn't like, even to the point of building a system to prevent government officials were trying to take Ubers so they couldn't get fined. | | |
| ▲ | deepfriedchokes a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The difference is Uber provided a service the public wanted. | |
| ▲ | Yiin a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | it's clear that 3 letter agencies wants flock online, bit weird to put blame on flock, when it's just a gun that's being handled by the federal gov. | | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Flock has real human officers who direct it and shareholders who profit from it (those groups overlap), it is not an inert object wielded by the State. This doesn't reduce the responsibility of the state for misdeeds it does or attempts with Flock, but neither does the State’s role absolve Flock’s leadership and owners of the misdeeds they do and profit from, whether or not some or all are at the request of the State. | |
| ▲ | skinfaxi a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's a mass-surveillance dragnet, not a gun. |
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| ▲ | RobotToaster a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I thought that happened decades ago. |
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