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| ▲ | tybit 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There’s a limit to how much society can spend on aircraft safety, but it’s quite a lot because it’s so important.
Cyber Security teams have to work with large constraints because spending an ever increasing amount of money directly, or losing money indirectly (like not allowing product teams to move quickly) is explicitly not a goal of most companies.
So while we try to make zero mistakes, most companies are willing to take a non zero amount of extra risk of these things happening in exchange for other benefits. | | |
| ▲ | andix 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Aviation is working with the same constraints. Development of new systems is very slow, that's true. But day-to-day operation is extremely fast paced, and still impressively safe. They are able to change an engine of an aircraft within hours, with a very high probability of not making any relevant mistakes in the process. | | |
| ▲ | simonra 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but at what cost? How quickly improvements are delivered is one thing, but the materials and chosen process also come at a premium. And while it probably is worth it in aviation due to life and health being highly irreplaceable, the value of for instance my chat history or photos is certainly finite and quite low. Should they be corrupted, leaked, or worst case gone, it would somewhat suck. But at the same time I've effectively concluded that safeguards are worth about 0.4% of my monthly take home after tax, and when the yearly bill comes due I'm each time increasingly questioning whether I actually do value them even that highly. | | |
| ▲ | Brian_K_White 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Sure, but at what cost?" At the appropriate and necessary cost. A less costly new engine design or less costly engine swap procedure that fails is worse than no airplane at all. If it's cheaper and fails, we don't want it. It wasn't cheaper, it was even worse than expensive. It's not hyperbolic all or nothing. Sure infinite cost is just as useless as infinite failure, but there is no reason to talk about infinite. At what cost? Some. At some cost. |
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| ▲ | justincormack 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can also reduce blast radius from breaches, and make systems more robust, rather than just trying to make zero mistakes. How bad breaches are and how well you can recover is also part of the outcome, just framing it as zero breaches or nothing is not that helpful, even though reducing breaches is important. | | |
| ▲ | jeremyjh an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | This isn't a different thing - it is just one of techniques used, and it still requires humans to understand the systems they are building. Teams that outsource their systems understanding to AI will fail, no matter how they frame it. | |
| ▲ | andix 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Isn't that the same thing as "not making mistakes"? If you can reduce the blast radius and didn't, wasn't that a major mistake in the first place? | | |
| ▲ | charlieyu1 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | A lot of code is certainly not written careful enough. Plenty examples of plaintext passwords storage in the wild. | |
| ▲ | phil21 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, it's recognizing mistakes will be made and no one is perfect. You will also make mistakes regarding blast radius - sometimes the blast doors don't close or function like you thought they would during an actual explosion. Defense in depth is the idea. Swiss cheese model of failure. |
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| ▲ | toomuchtodo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Those of us who care. Those optimizing for economic returns or out of ideology are not. More carnage will be required for incentives to swing back I think. "Security is for losers" > Andy Yen, the CEO of Proton, had a message for an employee in the company’s security Slack channel who urged the company to at least take a few days to pentest newly written code before pushing it live. “That’s bullshit and loser thinking. Of course it’s possible to be fast and secure,” Yen wrote in the channel at the end of August. “Stop thinking always of how to be slower, and focus more on how to be faster.” In a follow-up message, Yen reiterated his point: “only losers think like that.” His ultimate message for the team was to “stop lovingly handcrafting all our code and use AI more.” Proton CEO Andy Yen: "This will be the last year that we hire engineers." - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50295112 - October 2026 Manifestos, Fear, and 'Loser Thinking': Inside Proton's AI Reckoning - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50289692 - October 2026 Good luck. Edit: There appears to be some consequences for acting like this and those actions being made public. Proton's CEO Cancels AI 'Re-Interviews' - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50307183 - October 2026 | | |
| ▲ | thereader12 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's the sort of thing you really don't want to hear from your encrypted mail company. | | |
| ▲ | mcv 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I can imagine people are quickly looking for an alternative now. I wouldn't want to hear this from any company I'm a customer of. | | | |
| ▲ | tancop 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Moving faster is good. But only if it means sending more agents (and humans, that part is important) to do the same amount of testing in less time. Dropping critical work is not that. | | |
| ▲ | coldtea 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Moving faster is good. Says who? For what purpose? To whose benefit? I want my encrypted email company to move slow, deliberately, and very carefully. I'd like most software in general to move slower. Some, I'd like to not move at all. I hate churn for churn's sake, or piling useless features just so you pretend you did something to justify your subscription pricing, both of which were already the norm before AI and are worse now. To speak in Apple terms, we don't miss more and faster crap novelties. We miss the Snow Leopard releases. | |
| ▲ | linksnapzz 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Oblig. Simpsons: Homer: “There’s three ways to do things. The right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way! Lisa: "Isn’t that also the wrong way?" Homer: "Yeah, but... faster.” | |
| ▲ | devmor 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why is moving faster good? I don’t see much benefit to it, unless I am a shareholder. |
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| ▲ | toomuchtodo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Vote with your feet or prepare for your eventual breach notification and data loss event. You control who you choose to do business with, and who custodians and processes your data, it is a choice. Make good choices. | | |
| ▲ | lenerdenator 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The problem is, ultimately, most companies have this mindset. Certainly the ones you've heard of do. Charlie Munger once said, "Show me the incentives, and I'll show you the outcomes." There are very, very, very few actual incentives to operate a real infosec effort at most companies. Think about it: how many companies have you heard of going out-of-business because of breaches? If you're like most Americans, you've probably received at least one letter from some company you did business with telling you that their systems were compromised and your data may or may not have been stolen as a result. They'll usually close out the letter with an offer of free credit monitoring for some finite length of time. Since that's useless and a lawsuit is a pain in the ass with no guarantee of benefit, the vast majority of people simply sigh and toss the letter in the trash. There's no real way to pin identity theft or other consequences on a given data breach, so it's hard to make any sort of claim that way. At the end of the day, the company has saved money by not instituting best InfoSec practices and red-teaming their software on a routine basis. There are no civil or criminal penalties for them not doing so. So they don't. |
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| ▲ | crnkofe 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Just learned about his position on security today. Been a Protonmail user for a while now. Initially I switched to detach myself from the US corp monopolies. Its just a matter of time now before I shutdown my Protonmail account. CEOs should understand that company ethics and security are not just black pixels on a white background. | |
| ▲ | jerf 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "His ultimate message for the team was to “stop lovingly handcrafting all our code and use AI more.”" Mmmmm... I think I may have to score this particular point for the CEO. Lovingly handcrafted code has been many things over the past 30 years, but "secure" is not one of the adjectives I'd apply to it. Anyone who thinks that the lovingly handcrafted code has always just been wonderfully secure needs to check the tint on their glasses. A proper AI setup probably can produce more secure code more quickly than conventional development processes... however one of the keys will be to understand that yes, that will still be slower than writing code that is not rather carefully analyzed for security and a company like Proton had better have a strong commitment to never, ever skipping that step because it's slowing them down or it got expensive. "Proper" in "proper AI setup" is the most important word. But that's not to say that I'm endorsing everything else he said. Even if it is true that companies will be able to stop hiring engineers, which at the moment I seriously doubt [1], a company like Proton should expect to be one of the last companies who can do that, not be getting publicly excited about it first. Hey we dumped all our engineers because our managers can just prompt our AIs just as well here in October 2026 would definitely be a "instantly cancel any Proton services I had" signal for me. [1]: One of the things I don't expect to change is that there are plenty of people I would describe my actual day-to-day work to and they would consider it a living hell if they had to do it. I still quite enjoy it overall. And there are plenty of jobs that other people love and I would consider a living hell. Even in 25 years that's going to be the case. There will be people willing to put up with the process of working with the system to create this stuff... but the people who are willing to be professional about this, do the QA, do the work beyond the first fun prompts, is going to be a minority, and an even smaller minority who take the time to get good at it. There will always be people who are better and people who are worse. | | |
| ▲ | Yoric 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | While I agree that handcrafting code has never been any kind of guarantee of secure code, I'd argue that it remains a condition: if all you have is a set of specs (or even worse, specs written by AI and not read carefully by anyone) and no mean to ensure that the implementation actually matches the spec, you essentially have no understanding of what the code is doing, which is security suicide. Of course, AI reviewers and security tools will catch some security errors, but this should come as an addition to a proper security design, not instead of it. |
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| ▲ | throwaway270925 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | God am I happy to not have switched to Proton right now! | | |
| ▲ | coldtea 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I kick myself for having adopted part of its paid offerings. | |
| ▲ | timbaboon 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Haha same! Was about to pull the trigger in the next few weeks |
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| ▲ | boredatoms 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wow this makes me hesitate to renew with them | |
| ▲ | red_candle_wax 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > "Security is for losers" Lol, brave words in an age of $6B heists and major CVEs every week. | |
| ▲ | fcarraldo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The irony here with Yen (and to be clear, fuck him) is that Proton has been _slow as molasses_ since the beginning. It took them literal years to launch a calendar. A calendar! Either he's been like this the entire time, trying to crack the whip and failing, and thus a bad leader who has repeatedly failed to get results, or he's (as his employees have said) very deep in AI Psychosis and completely abandoned his principles. It doesn't matter which it is, they're both extremely damning for the company and his leadership. | | |
| ▲ | coldtea 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | >The irony here with Yen (and to be clear, fuck him) is that Proton has been _slow as molasses_ since the beginning. It took them literal years to launch a calendar. A calendar! As if that's a problem? I want them to be my fucking encrypted email. Not a calendar. Not a backup. Not a VPN. And they've already stretched to all kinds of shit. |
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| ▲ | QuiEgo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Eww. I have now lost all interest in their products. | |
| ▲ | MDTHLN 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What is it with weirdo tech executives and calling people losers? First DHH, now this guy. | | |
| ▲ | jerf 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | According to my friendly neighborhood AI there is no commonly accepted term for this effect, but when you have a community of people that is heavily selected for a particular characteristic you will end up with people that generally are outliers in some other significant ways too. In this case, caring deeply about email security is weird... unfortunately... and you can expect further weirdness from such people. You can also read about people talking about this in the super-early computer user communities. When you had to be a bit crazy to even be interested in computers you ended up with people who were outliers in a lot of other ways too. As more people came in to the space it would regress to the mean... this is one of the things that "regression to the mean" can be regressing from. | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Weak man's idea of a strong man. Strong leaders protect and support those who work for them, and accept legitimate criticism and being challenged on their ideas, but I digress. "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king." The measure is not who you can bully and denigrate successfully, but who will follow you to hell. | | |
| ▲ | ishouldnotbutk8 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | >Strong leaders protect and support those who work for them, and accept legitimate criticism and being challenged on their ideas And whose idea of a strong man is this? I don't think many people would follow Putin to hell willingly, or that he accepts any criticism, or accept being challenged on his ideas. But he could be called a "strong man", at least the kind of "strong man" some people aspire to be. | | |
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| ▲ | linksnapzz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Anybody who is as responsible for popularizing Ruby on Rails & YAML as DHH has, has no standing to call anyone else a loser. |
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| ▲ | mort96 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean if a company doesn't care about protecting its users' data then any conversation about improving security is gonna be inapplicable to them. I'd also suggest that companies being so blasé is a direct result of lacking regulation. If there was no laws about aviation safety I bet we'd have more airlines with lax safety standards and more accidents. |
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| ▲ | znpy 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But why stop there? Aim higher!! End of all world’s wars, no more hunger anywhere anymore, free abundant clean electric power for everyone everywhere! Jokes aside, you can’t get anywhere near zero fault unless to impose strict operating regulations , requirements and procedures and regular checks… just like in aviation. And even there, boeing manages to fuck it up somehow. |
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