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▲ futuraperdita 5 hours ago

Anyone that's been in the Amazon offices in the last few years is not likely to have witnessed a culture that fosters lab-grade innovation.

▲bilalq 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Your comment was likely focused on dysfunctional parts of the culture there (and that seems to be how most replies to you interpreted it as well). There's truth to that, sure. But I think respect for data sensitivity and security is also a big part of what makes the culture ill-suited for frontier AI lab work.

When I was at AWS, we had data access locked down very tightly. I was trying to train a model to predict how long various dynamic workloads running on behalf of customers would take. Just getting access to anonymized production data from a DB that my team owned took well over a month and had me compromise heavily on what attributes I could access. I also spent a decent amount of time in meetings with lawyers and compliance folks to explain and justify all our data classifications for PII, retention, access controls, etc. We would review our data policies quite frequently. We needed break-glass procedures to access prod data in our own systems, and it was uncommon to need to resort to that. Even when you broke glass, certain classes of sensitive data would still not be visible to you. On the plus side, We did get quite good at operating and maintaining systems without needing to see sensitive info.

If you contrast that with Meta's disregard for privacy or the way frontier labs disregard the law, it's easy to see why Amazon would struggle in this space.

▲JohnMakin 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I read your comment as “amazon acts too responsibly to be a frontier lab,” and that worries me. That they even bothered to do all that stuff is good. That others don’t is bad.

▲bilalq 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I did indeed mean it that way, but I agree with you. It sucks, but it's just the unfortunate reality of the world. Many of the most disruptive and successful startups made it there by ignoring legal or moral limitations.

▲rkagerer an hour ago | parent [-]

Frankly reading your comments was a relief. I'd rather they take my privacy (and security) seriously. I don't need or want any AI features or technology from Amazon, thanks very much.

▲22c an hour ago | parent [-]

Amazon has a history of fostering off-shoot companies that are given more freedom to innovate[1][2]. Keeping AI development in-house under Bedrock was probably their mistake. There's a big difference between running AI and developing new AI models.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapurna_Labs

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Lab126

▲andai 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Incentives can produce locally rational and globally harmful behavior. (See also: "Moloch", although I'm less of a fan of the concept lately since it focuses exclusively on the harmful aspects of emergent systems, deleting the neutral and positive ones in the process.)

A relevant metaphor is the nuclear arms race. Nobody wants a world full of nukes pointed at each other, but if the other guy is gonna do it...

The argument in this case is, we can't slow down, because China certainly won't, and do you want those guys to build the machine God first? So it's "rational" to maximize p(accidental_skynet).

▲torginus an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Their core selling point is customer trust that their product works as advertised.

From my interactions with them, is that they really care about customer success, and everything including AI is a means to an end to them.

I think building a cool product with undefined reliability and capabilities, then selling fantasies about what it will possibly be able to do down the line isn't really what they do - or what their customers are paying for.

▲Arbortheus 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If the people that do stuff well fail, what does that leave us with?

▲piva00 3 hours ago | parent [-]

With the need to enact political change so incentives align for the benefit of society at large.

▲Refreeze5224 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This indeed. Economic democracy is as important as political democracy.

▲realo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Careful there... people who cannot even describe or define what communism is will tag you as a communist.

▲lnkdinsuxs an hour ago | parent [-]

what is communism and are there verifiable reports of it accomplishing what it promises?

▲Refreeze5224 an hour ago | parent [-]

Where is there verifiable proof that capitalism is not rule by the rich and powerful?

▲lnkdinsuxs an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> That they even bothered to do all that stuff is good. That others don’t is bad

good and bad isn't what Meta and AWS is running with. If AWS trains willy nilly on user data like Meta does, AWS is toast. AWS is already taking a huge risk by now using their own take of AWS FDEs competing against their established ecosystem of consulting companies that used to recommend all 583 of AWS products to host a static webpage. Turning of more customers by training on their data is too much of a risk. That's the "good" - a risk analysis.

Meta doesn't care if you stop using Facebook, Whatsapp etc. Frankly, if you are embedded in the Facebook, Whatsapp ecosystem, you don't have a way out as a normie. Even if you are technically capable, good luck publishing your custom Mattermost build for iOS.

Meta has a significant amount of investment in hardware, originally due to Metaverse. The way to monetize that investment is inference and training. That's a do or die decision for Meta. Meta isn't releasing open-weight models because they are "good".

Meta is releasing open-weight models for the same reason Alibaba, NVIDIA or IBM does. Or Google releases Gemma.

There's no "good" or "bad" - the moment Alibaba, NVIDIA, IBM or Google's objective functions change, "Do no evil" will quickly morph into "Do as much evil as necessary without the costs of getting caught exceeding E(outcome)"

▲sheepscreek 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That explains a lot. They are anti “move fast and break things” which is great news for enterprises or anyone seeking stability but terrible for innovation.

I don’t condone the use of pirated content for training. But anything that was bought is above the board as far as I’m concerned. Can let the lawyers fight out the minutia and inevitable licensing specifics after the fact (book publishers are hawks).

Fun fact, did you know that every library in the world has an independent contract with every major book publisher?

In cases I am familiar with, they added a condition that a physical book can only be lent X times. After that, the library must purchase a new copy (even if the original copy is in pristine condition). Yeah, hawks.

▲djtango 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Seems like what you would get if you were customer-centric and building a cloud platform for enterprise and govt to trust which was all set up pre-AI

▲everfrustrated 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There's a reason companies tend to prefer to acquire over in-house. This is part of the calculus.

▲kps 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Amazon chose for itself a reputation as a place that nobody with a choice will work. I'm pleased to see that pay off.

▲saucymew 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a fair take. However, when it comes to warehouse automation/logistics, I constantly see what they're adopting in their hardware stack.

They're a good data point on where the robotics labor frontier is.

▲paxy 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

That innovation has also mostly come in via acquisitions.

▲killingtime74 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

So it's a good place to work if you're a robot?

▲number6 3 hours ago | parent [-]

00000000: 6e6f 7420 6576 656e 2061 7320 6120 726f not .even as a ro

00000010: 626f 74

▲blobbers 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This is what my roomba said when it took me 3 days to find it and cut the hair rolled onto it's wheel.

▲nobleach 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is what I've heard from my friends both there and at Meta. It definitely doesn't carry the prestige it once did. It's more like, "willing to get yelled at, be afraid of being put on a PIP every day, and trying to ensure output outpaces your peers". That's sad, but it's where the industry is at so many places right now.

▲Analemma_ 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Amazon offers good signing bonuses that pay out over two years, so it's very common to peace out right at the 2-year mark when your take-home pay abruptly goes way down and the grind is no longer worth it. That's what I did, and I noticed it almost everywhere: there's a constant revolving door of inexperienced people. I don't understand how they keep it going with so much turnover, but somehow they've built a system that kinda withstands it, except in frontier AI apparently.

▲nobleach 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think it's coasting on that prestige of being FAANG. People still want it on their resume. I share this from time to time but I interviewed there at the same time I interviewed at Facebook (right before the name change). And the difference was night and day. Amazon truly treated me like cattle. Get in, do the automated Leetcode/HackerRank thing. Canned conversations. Facebook at least _seemed_ like they were rooting for my success the entire time.

▲nfRfqX5n 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They still pay a lot. The comment you replied to is mostly wrong about the 2 year cliff. Year 3 and 4 should be higher comp if you have good ratings.

▲Ancalagon 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Exact same experience.

Amazons interviews were so formulaic and it’s interviewers so robotic it was almost sickening.

▲zmgsabst 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you chart money in your pocket per unit time, it takes a dip around 18 months where your average pay is less than your first month’s pay. (When I was there, using RSU numbers for that time.) Guess when average quitting time was?

HR swore it wasn’t on purpose and I was somehow measuring pay “wrong” by looking at money in my pocket over time; but knowing their HR, I’m sure the valleys in transition from signing bonus to vesting are intentional.

▲evanwolf 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Is this weeding out long termers (willing to wait years to vest) vs the impatient?

▲shiroonandon 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Works great for the business too. I recently worked in a business unit with a 2 year vesting model. I loved the work and challenges.

.. and then got let go at 22 months in favour of the AI budget.

Gotta respect the hustle.

▲bradknowles 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because all humans are 100% fungible with all other humans. So, you can take whatever old humans you have, throw them away (or make them want to leave), and then replace them with all new humans, with zero negative effect on anything. Rinse and repeat.

Human experience means nothing. Anything that does have meaning gets encoded in the system for the mindless humans to implement.

That’s my take on the view from the top, based on my time working at AWS.

▲fellowniusmonk 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Was s3 the last time Amazon showed lab grade innovation? Lambda?

I could be wrong because I haven't paid much attention but Amazon has just fast followed everyone else innovation for a awhile so it's in like one ecosystem yeah?

I'm not trying to be snarky, I just haven't thought about aws as having any innovation for a while and I always figured it was because ruthless companies that churn through people as disposable commodities generally don't do tech innovation.

I'm talking on the AWS side, on the logistics side they clearly are doing insane things on supply chain perf optimization.

▲torginus an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Dunno about that, but my experience with AWS is their stuff generally works, the other big 2 doesn't.

Generally speaking, on AWS you can buy compute, storage, network and other basic 'goods' and just like a supermarket where you can get either flour and eggs, a cake mix or a ready-made cake, AWS is willing to serve it to you in various levels of ready-ness, and you can start at the level you want, and build your own layers on top if you don't like AWS's solutions.

And AWS's solutions are generally built like that as well, there's no magic to Lambda or Fargate or EKS, its just they run the same EC2s, but with some proprietary magic that lifts some complexity from your shoulders, at the cost of generally some markup, and loss of some otherwise desirable features.

But the core thing is that AWS's offerings are generally solid, so as AI evolves and companies become more willing to take on more complexity, they will move to lower level services, but not necessarily out of AWS itself.

▲cyberax 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I could be wrong because I haven't paid much attention but Amazon has just fast followed everyone else innovation for a awhile so it's in like one ecosystem yeah?

A lot of innovation at AWS is invisible on the outside. They pioneered hyperscale datacenters with publicly accessible capacity, software-defined networks, secure VMs, and so on.

> I'm not trying to be snarky, I just haven't thought about aws as having any innovation for a while and I always figured it was because ruthless companies that churn through people as disposable commodities generally don't do tech innovation.

I worked at AWS before COVID. It was really a varied experience, but it was not _bad_ overall. We prided ourselves on making sure our APIs are solid, stable, and backwards compatible. When we had to make a backwards-incompatible change, we actually contacted every affected customer and ensured that their workflows wouldn't be broken.

▲fellowniusmonk an hour ago | parent [-]

Oh for sure, these many years AWS has set a high bar in the service space for conscientiousness in offerings. When I compare to my personal work experiences with gcp and azure the amount of times I've been rug pulled over the years has been essentially zero for AWS.

▲curt15 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Nitro?