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▲ prymitive 4 hours ago

It’s mind boggling that in the UK there’s a law that says:

> “A plank of wood must not be carried along a pavement. It can only be moved if it is being unloaded from a vehicle or taken into a building.”

But big tech cannot be regulated at all. We used to regulate any minor thing that was annoying enough, but a whole industry spying and prying on the whole population is fine.

▲throaway3534621 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> But big tech cannot be regulated at all.

It cannot be regulated because we let dollar/capital rise above political authority.

▲amelius 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Journalism also fails in uncovering it.

Public awareness is step one.

▲swiftcoder 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't know that this is a discovery issue. It has been widely publicised that all your devices are spying on you for at least a decade now - hard proof was previously somewhat hard to come by, but a suitable regulatory agency could have gone digging at any point.

▲gruez 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

>It has been widely publicised that all your devices are spying on you for at least a decade now

This sort of equivocation, where any privacy invasion gets rounded off to "spying on you" doesn't help either. Clickbait headlines over android making 100 requests to google gets lumped together with more serious privacy violations like random SDKs selling your location data, causing a learned helplessness where people think "spying on you" is normal and can't be avoided.

▲swiftcoder 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

> where people think "spying on you" is normal and can't be avoided

Normal people, yes, but this is exactly what tech regulators ought to be gunning for. Even post GDPR, we just don't seem to have enough bulldogs in enforcement...

▲nicce an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The main issue is that the attention economy and social pressure are so hard to break. People keep using WhatsApp because it is convenient and everyone is there. There are no other reasons.

▲delusional an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Tons of media outlets have covered privacy failures in the past. The public doesn't care, and so the journalists stop caring as well.

▲garyfirestorm an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Awareness and care is one thing. A unanimous action plan is another. Violation of privacy is not viewed through similar lens as say theft or other forms of crimes.

▲Xelbair an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

media profits from privacy failures by proxy due to adtech networks.

There's gigantic conflict of interest there.

▲delusional 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

journalistic media resolve this by having independent editorials. There's of course still structural issues, especially if those media outlets are traded or seen as investment targets, but the general structure has worked for 50-60 years.

This is one of the problems with the neo-journalistic outlets and "citizen journalism". They don't have the staffing or discipline to run that sort of operation.

▲throaway3534621 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

▲bulbar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nothing and nobody rises above the authority in a dictatorship, that's kind of the point.

The CEO of Alibaba was kidnapped after he publicly criticized the government.

It's generally no surprise that there are not that many critical voices in a dictatorship.

▲JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Nothing and nobody rises above the authority in a dictatorship, that's kind of the point

Until they do. That’s the problem with dictatorship. If you can kill and swiftly replace the dictator, you become the dictator. What the masses believe is irrelevant.

▲Rnonymous an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

How many american citizens were kidnapped without due process in the last year?

▲tonyhart7 an hour ago | parent [-]

Google says 500 ????? Idk seems a small for me

▲LogicFailsMe 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Despite really kicking our asses on their approach to an AI ecosystem, China has problems of its own. Too bad we can't just copy the parts that work but those are the rules I guess.

https://www.wsj.com/world/china-economy-gen-z-f9058941

▲eklavya 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are a lot of things you don't have to worry about in China because someone else makes the decision for you. Sure you want to strive for that?

I feel sorry that democracies are failing their citizenry like this.

▲idiotsecant 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Someone else making the decision for you is a good description for laws, which we decided a long time ago we would in fact have. It's weird how people come out of the woodwork like this when those laws start to point at rich people.

▲goodmythical 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's surely a difference between a system in which the population gets to pick who writes the laws and one in which they don't?

The way a farmer decides what their pigs eat is far from the way a caring lover chooses their partner's dinner.

▲LogicFailsMe 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Stupid obsolete laws that stay on the books forever is seemingly the American way and occasionally we refresh them with new even stupider laws that were obsolete before they were even proposed.

▲46283737292 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

▲throaway3534621 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure, why not? I'd like to live in a system where the interest of the nation and the people are above your or someone else's ROI. I'd like to live in a system where if you try, like Elon Musk, to amass so much influence on the nation for your own benefits - you're gonna be Jack Ma'd.

▲universa1 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Who decides what the interests of the nation are? Who decides what the interests of the people are? You? I?

This is generally not possible to do consistently, as if A prefers option 1 and B prefers option 2, you're at an impass...

And I'd take the inefficiencies of democracies over dictatorships any day...

▲bulbar 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I'd like to live in a system where the interest of the nation and the people are above your or someone else's ROI.

Democracies are much closer to that than dictatorships as they don't need to care about the people and never did.

Crazy that you like a system where somebody can just get kidnapped. It never just affects the "right" people, but also a lot of other people. China is jailing and kidnapping a lot - easily tens of thousands of more - of their citizen to sustain control.

▲JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> interest of the nation and the people are above your or someone else's ROI

How do you think Xi Jinping’s family became billionaires?

▲bryan_w an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

And what stops Elon from becoming the person in charge?

▲andsoitis 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> “A plank of wood must not be carried along a pavement. It can only be moved if it is being unloaded from a vehicle or taken into a building.”

Is that a good law or is it a barnacle? Is it enforced in the UK?

▲RobotToaster an hour ago | parent | next [-]

It isn't entirely true, it has to be "to the obstruction, annoyance, or danger of the residents or passengers" for it to be illegal https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/10-11/89

Although it does appear to be true in London https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/2-3/47/section/54

▲timoshishi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Actually it is. Around 2005 I was stopped by police at 2am in Hackney and told in no uncertain terms that it was illegal for me to be walking with a 2x4 in my hand

▲prmoustache an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Next time bring a bicycle.

▲halJordan an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

That was twenty years ago my dude

▲voakbasda an hour ago | parent [-]

Yeah, today you would stopped and frisked, detained, photographed, fingerprinted, interrogated, and finally jailed… for speaking out against the asshats who the think this is a good law.

▲ajb 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If your building or other construction is unsafe for the public, the local authority has the right to make it safe, if necessary by demolishing it; if you are insufficiently responsive to a notice that you must make it safe. Maybe tech companies need that kind of incentive before they will care enough not to subject their customers to this kind of abuse.

▲cowlevel 2 hours ago | parent [-]

From the government perspective this is not abuse, in fact many governments make it mandatory by law

▲bassie123 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is a counter incentive, the money the companies pay the politicians.

▲delusional an hour ago | parent [-]

> There is a counter incentive, the money the companies pay the politicians.

That's disingenuous. The public has been told a beautiful fairy tale about technology for years. There are huge outcries every single time any politician tries to regulate big tech.

Now I know that this isn't because the public is somehow ideologically opposed to regulation. We have been paid off, just as much as the politicians have. When they increase the prices of televisions and say it's because they this new regulation, we show up to support them.

▲howunfortunate 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

> The public has been told a beautiful fairy tale about technology

He typed, from a tiny device in his hand, from a bed in an air-conditioned apartment millions of miles away. Or perhaps from a jet sailing through the sky, via a satellite in space

▲andrewaylett 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the interests of accuracy, the law (the Metropolitan Police Act 1839) actually states

""" 54 Prohibition of nuisances by persons in the thoroughfares.

Every person shall be liable to a penalty not more than level 2 on the standard scale, who, within the limits of the metropolitan police district, shall in any thoroughfare or public place, commit any of the following offences; (that is to say,)

...

8. Every person who shall roll or carry any cask, tub, hoop, or wheel, or any ladder, plank, pole, showboard, or placard, upon any footway, except for the purpose of loading or unloading any cart or carriage, or of crossing the footway:

... """ https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/2-3/47/section/54

The plank of wood is one element in a much broader statute, rather than an example of hyper-specificity. And it might have been strictly applied at the time, but that doesn't mean you're definitely going to get into trouble nowadays.

In a similar vein, the UK *does* have laws that affect big tech. UK GDPR places requirements on processing of personal data:

""" Personal data shall be:

(a)processed lawfully, fairly and in a transparent manner in relation to the data subject (‘lawfulness, fairness and transparency’); """ https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2016/679/article/5

Whether that's properly enforced is (as with the plank) a completely different matter.

In the UK, at least, we don't need new regulations, we need to more effectively apply the regulations we already have in place. But there is also a balance to be made between enforcement through fines and enforcement through changing behaviour: it's much better to work with companies to bring them into compliance than it is to just fine them and without actually changing anything.

▲masfuerte 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Just to emphasise:

> within the limits of the metropolitan police district

It's a local London law. In England such laws are passed by parliament because there is no other mechanism, but in countries with devolved lawmaking states and cities have much crazier laws.

▲delusional an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem with regulating big tech is the unplacable internet. Who can regulate the internet? Who gets to make rules for the global network?

Politicians are keenly aware that regulation has to be administered, and administration costs money. The internet subsists on low overhead, and per jurisdiction administration would significantly change almost everything about the current internet. The public wont allow that.

If the public actually starts demanding regulation, we will see a fracturing of the internet into national networks. It will become impossible (or at least uneconomical) to run reddit, youtube, or facebook as global networks. They might continue to exists, but they will be sectioned off.

▲jwilcoxson an hour ago | parent [-]

But it’s absolutely placeable. The internet is run by real computers that exist in the physical world.

▲delusional 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

In that scheme, would regulation be based on where the servers are located? What's to stop me from routing American traffic to Armenia, where the laws don't exist? What's to stop me routing it to Russia, where the general legal principle is that illegality won't be pursued if it's no against Russian citizens?

▲eps 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Any rule is as good as its enforcement.

The plank rule just exists, not enforced, so nobody observes it.

Same will happen with the high-tech regulation. In fact, it is already happening left and right where it does exist.

▲amanaplanacanal 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

We see see two failure modes in the US, and I assume they are universal. On the small scale, enforcers don't enforce, because of resource constraints, and higher up the food chain, the enforcers are the ones breaking the law.

▲api 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Devils advocate ish reason:

People understand what a plank of wood is and how it works.

People, including the vast majority of politicians, don’t understand our technology at all. It’s magic. Why does a light come on when they flip the switch? Magic. Computers are deep black magic.

How can they write effective regulation? Or tell the difference between proposals that are good or bad written by others?

If politicians regulated big tech more we’d probably end up with a ton of regulatory capture that legislated monopolies for big tech and shut out open source and startups, because who has the money to influence the ignorant lawmakers at scale?

We are now in a world where small groups of high priests understand certain things, and few others. We’ve been there for a while but it’s gotten far more opaque in the last 25 years or so.

Even something like a nuclear reactor or an aircraft is much easier to explain. The last episode of the Chernobyl series did a great job explaining what was wrong with that reactor design to a layperson. But computing… and networks… people who do understand it have forgotten just how ludicrously arcane and inscrutable it is to most.

A big difference too is that by the Church-Turing theorem there is (as a side effect of it) a provably infinite number of ways to perform any computation. Which means you can’t just legislate “don’t do that.” Physical machines are not like that.

▲hgoel 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The point of having advisors was supposed to be that they would help the elected person make up for lack of knowledge, but it doesn't seem like that pans out in reality. Either the advisors are just as lost, or they are largely ignored.

▲wongarsu an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The need for good advisors is a major point in Sun-Tzu's Art of War.

Surround yourself with good advisors and the surrounding kingdoms will notice and be less inclined to attack. If you have bad advisors, your enemies will perceive that as their opening

▲api an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Or they are corrupt. Corrupt advisors are as old as civilization.