| ▲ | ipozgaj 5 hours ago |
| > These people have arguably contributed nothing to society for over a decade React, React Native, GraphQL, LLama, PyTorch, RocksDB, Cassandra, folly, Hack, HHVM, OCP, Presto, btrfs, cgroupsv2/PSI, eBPF, zstd, roughly 12% of all Linux kernel contributions are signed off by Meta + Meta is the 5th biggest contributor to Linux kernel. Also a ton of other projects that did not originally come out of Meta but get a ton of patches and support/funding: MySQL, Memcached, Hadoop, LLVM, Systemd, Rust, Python etc. Perhaps research a bit more before you make these ignorant comments. |
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| ▲ | phatskat 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I can take a brief look at the social damage meta has done and say that, to me, none of those contributions are worth the pain that they have caused. From the messed up self-image issues they instill on children to the hand they played - either intentionally or through pure ignorance - in ethnic cleansing, I couldn't care less about what they've done in the tech space when those commits are signed in blood. |
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| ▲ | tempestn 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's fine, but the original question asked why people respect devs who work at Meta given they haven't contributed anything. (It didn't explicitly say devs, but when meta employees are getting respect around here, that's who's being discussed.) Your parent reply demonstrated that they have in fact contributed a lot, so there are obviously some accomplished developers working there. It's certainly possible to see the company as a net negative for society while also recognizing those contributions. One could even argue that that could simultaneously be the case, while the net effects of some particular devs working there are positive (though I could imagine reasonable arguments on both sides of that one). | | |
| ▲ | cmoski 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Contributed anything to society. I doubt anyone in my local community is going to know or care what any of those libraries, frameworks, etc are. | | |
| ▲ | tempestn 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your local community also probably doesn't know or care a lot about water purification, power distribution, standardized shipping, or the myriad other technologies that make society work. |
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| ▲ | iugtmkbdfil834 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Zstd is worth a lot of other's people's pain. My subtle point is that there are a lot of real reasons to dislike Meta. No reason to have hate blind you.. | | |
| ▲ | throw0101c 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Zstd is worth a lot of other's people's pain. "Amnesty report finds Facebook amplified hate ahead of Rohingya massacre in Myanmar": * https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/amnesty-report-finds-face... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide#Facebook_con... | | |
| ▲ | iugtmkbdfil834 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | What is your point? That zstd cannot exist? That it shouldn't? I can't read minds you know. | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A lot of people have died horribly, millions, perhaps billions of lives have been affected negatively, democracies have been subverted, but at least we got a nice compression algorithm? And React, although the jury remains out on whether that's a transformative technology or... not. | | | |
| ▲ | throw0101c 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > What is your point? That zstd cannot exist? That it shouldn't? I can't read minds you know. Would it be better that: * zstd exists because Meta exists (net benefiting over other people's pain — including possibly the 'pain' of genocide), or * a genocide did not happen (or was not as bad) because Meta did not exist (but we never got zstd)? | | |
| ▲ | iugtmkbdfil834 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Friend, there is no better. There is just this. I know it is hard for you to hear me, but hear me for I do have something to tell you. We do not live in a perfect world. That is a simple fact, but I need you to accept that fact before we have a chance to communicate. I don't mean me reading, you responding ad infinitum. No. I mean communicating. Can you do that for me? Because if you are gonna give me tired binary choices along the lines of: 1) would you rather have a cookie
2) would you rather go to work It is not much of a choice. It is a cute rhetoric, but it is not the reality in which we live. Fucking qed. | | |
| ▲ | throw0101c 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Friend, there is no better. There is just this. I know it is hard for you to hear me, but hear me for I do have something to tell you. This sub-thread started with: > Zstd is worth a lot of other's people's pain. The (philosophical/theoretical) debate/discussion is about the 'quantity' of "people's pain", and how much of it is it worth for having Zstd (and other things that have come out of Meta/FB). What is the 'trade-off' (if any) between getting good and accepting evil? (Assuming "good" and "evil" even exist.) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om... | | |
| ▲ | iugtmkbdfil834 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | First, it started with grandparent stating: "none of those contributions are worth the pain that they have caused." Which a little excessive and I take personal issue with never, all, and none when someone writes that -- out of principle. Second, are we talking about its quantity or quality, because I posit that big numbers aint everything. |
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| ▲ | benatkin 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Thanks for mentioning that. It reinforces my desire to avoid zstd because of its connection to Facebook. | | | |
| ▲ | miltonlost 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | "Zstd is worth a lot of other's people's pain." in response to a post about how Facebook helped enable ethnic cleansing makes you look sociopathic. You just said "this tech is worth the deaths of thousands!!!!" | | |
| ▲ | iugtmkbdfil834 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | And? I stand by my what is your point? edit: I am not even baiting you man. I am just not sure why you have a beein your bonnet. | | |
| ▲ | vel0city 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If it took you pulling the trigger, how many people would you murder to make a slightly better compression algorithm? If you outsourced the murder to someone else, how many people would you be OK with murdering? Wouldn't it be better if we didn't continue to support corporations who enable genocide around the world? Now, ultimately I'll still end up using zstd. I'm not happy about it's ties to Facebook. But it's code that exists out there now, I don't see the reason to not use it. But I'll still try and avoid giving Facebook any money or praise. I don't give praise to Facebook engineers, at least not ones recently working there. They're massively paid in blood money, and they should already understand that by now. Their products hurt societies around the world, and they don't actually change. | | |
| ▲ | iugtmkbdfil834 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Here we go. You're wearing shoes, aren't you? Own a smartphone? Drive a hybrid? Use a computer? Ever eaten a banana? Bought something from Amazon? Turned on the air conditioning? Somewhere down those supply chains, someone suffered for your convenience. Every purchase is an atrocity by proxy. Every breath is stolen oxygen. Every step displaces an innocent insect. Your very existence is an ongoing ecological war crime. And you have the audacity to sit there, wearing pants assembled by strangers, pretending your hands are clean? Repent, sinner. Atone. | | |
| ▲ | vel0city 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You're wearing shoes, aren't you? Not currently, no. But when I do, I do bother actually trying to check sources. The last things on my feet were sandals purchased from the people who actually made them. > Every purchase is an atrocity by proxy. I mean, I understand tHeRe Is nO eThIcAl CoNsUmPtIoN uNdEr CaPitAlIsM. Sure. But when you know a specific supplier is a bad actor, has been pointed out as a bad actor, and refuses to change, do you continue to support that bad actor when you have tons of options? Do you continue choosing to champion them on forums online, despite knowing their entire product line is "we're going to throw kids into an emotionally damaging blender, sow discontent in your community, help ruin mental health globally, support genocidal maniacs overseas, spread massive disinformation, and overall damage everything you care about!" Do you just pour your used motor oil down the storm drains because, hey, the environment is fucked anyways, or do you at least try to reduce your impact? And once again, I even mentioned I'll continue to use zstd. I totally get that by using zstd I'm not directly supporting these things. But acting like "hey Facebook is great and its perfectly fine tons of people died directly to finance zstd's development" is IMO a bad take on the whole situation. So once again I ask, if it took you pulling the trigger, how many people would you personally murder to have zstd be financed, since you seem perfectly OK with trading human lives for compression algorithms? Or would you argue we shouldn't be trading lives for compression algorithms in the first place, and we should press on those corporations who do make money off such things to stop doing so instead of arguing we should just accept it? | | |
| ▲ | iugtmkbdfil834 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | << I even mentioned I'll continue to use zstd. I totally get that by using zstd I'm not directly supporting these things. But acting like "hey Facebook is great and its perfectly fine tons of people died directly to finance zstd's development" is IMO a bad take on the whole situation. Apologies, it is possible that I mistook you for another zealot. I obviously don't really disagree, but I find the holier than thou stance difficult to approach neutrally. << if it took you pulling the trigger, how many people would you personally murder to have zstd be financed, None. Here the hypothetical is simple. | | |
| ▲ | vel0city 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > None. Here the hypothetical is simple. This doesn't square with your "Zstd is worth a lot of other's people's pain" earlier statement. So what is it, you just don't care to actually be the one to inflict such pain? You're entirely OK with the idea that by championing zstd and telling people "its worth a lot of other's people's pain", knowing that by other's people's pain we're talking genocide, suicide, and deaths due to misinformation, so long as its not you specifically having to do that? Why is that? You've already stated its definitely worth it. Just not worth it for you to pull the trigger, but worth it enough for you to champion somebody else to pull the trigger? Personally I'd never say a compression algorithm is worth a genocide. | | |
| ▲ | iugtmkbdfil834 an hour ago | parent [-] | | And we were doing so well. << I even mentioned I'll continue to use zstd. I totally get that by using zstd I'm not directly supporting these things. But acting like "hey Facebook is great and its perfectly fine tons of people died directly to finance zstd's development" is IMO a bad take on the whole situation. Then, based on your line of argumentation, you are simply a hypocrite; very pedestrian ( I am personally disappointed ). You are perfectly ok with using zstd knowing that it indirectly supports company and the evil deeds it bestows upon the world while knowing it to be true AND lecturing others about the evil deeds they do. << You've already stated its definitely worth it. Just not worth it for you to pull the trigger, but worth it enough for you to champion somebody else to pull the trigger? Again, are you using a computer terminal to type those letters in? Are those letters worth the lives that made it possible for you to have this philosophical treatise on why you feel morally superior to me? Yes? Then maybe you shouldn't, because you explicitly are not. You are just like all the other kids out there unable to actually stand by what you claim to believe. Me? I just live it. << Personally I'd never say a compression algorithm is worth a genocide. You know.. I have rather fascinating realization. Maybe it is true that you would never say it. That is simply not done. You would just let it happen should the compression compressed enough. How do I know? You already stated you will continue to use it. Heh. Sorry man. I expected better. | | |
| ▲ | vel0city 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > knowing that it indirectly supports company > I totally get that by using zstd I'm not directly supporting these things. I'm not supporting Facebook by using a library that's freely available on the public internet and hosted by others. I'm not out there saying its worth the genocide. I actively try and avoid giving Facebook any amount of actual value from me and the things I touch. If you can point to how me using a package pulled from some debian package host is actively supporting Facebook, I'll try and reduce my consumption of the library. > You are just like all the other kids out there Ah, an ad hominem. I didn't expect better. > you are simply a hypocrite I am no perfect person and agree at times I am a hypocrite. I totally acknowledge tHeRe iS nO sUcH tHiNg As eThIcAl cOnSuMpTuIoN uNdEr cApItAlIsm, and ultimately almost every product I buy can probably trace some amount of its lineage to the suffering of others. I do think to a certain extent some of that amount of suffering is inherently impossible to avoid in the world of globalized supply chains, and ultimately I will end up consuming something connected to it. But if there's a choice of company A that causes X amount of societal damage and company B that causes 2X amount of societal damage, and you can freely choose between them, which do you choose? Do you go online and directly argue company B's products are definitely worth the extra human suffering? > How do I know? You already stated you will continue to use it. I use it because its there, open source, and freely available. Because, sure, you're right, it exists regardless of the suffering at this point. If they charged even a penny for a lifetime license I wouldn't use it, because I don't want to support Meta or companies like them if I have the choice. Same goes for lots of other corporations which I feel are directly bad actors, have been called out for being a bad actor, and I can actually choose a different supplier or eliminate such a thing from my life. Using an open-source library already in the public space isn't the same as supporting a corporation. Going on a forum and saying their products are worth genocide and excusing their bad actions is supporting that corporation. Do you not see the difference? Is installing MariaDB supporting Oracle, as some amount of the code traces a lineage to codebases now owned by Oracle? > Me? I just live it. You're not "just living it" though. You're actively saying a compression library is worth a genocide, so long as you don't have to pull the trigger. If they came to you and said "we'll make you a better compression algorithm, but we'll support a genocide on the other side of world to finance its development", would you choose to take that trade? Is such a thing is OK with you, that it doesn't really matter to try and push suppliers to be better, because its worth it? If not, please do correct me, but that's definitely what I'm understanding from our conversation. Ultimately if they came to me with that choice, I'd say no. Please stop supporting genocide and social unrest around the world would be my response. I'll continue with whatever compression library I already have, or maybe go try and get someone else to make a better one. I wouldn't just think "hey its worth it to trade human lives for financing software development". |
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| ▲ | blazing234 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have no respect for React, React Native and GraphQL. They are all horrible and don't solve actual problems. They aren't even the best tools to accomplish what they're trying to accomplish. I don't know anything about the other things so I can't say if they are good or not. But acting as if react is some big invention is crazy. bell Labs gave us Unix and C. Meta isn't even close to inventing something like that. |
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| ▲ | tiborsaas 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > and don't solve actual problems You can have a lot of beef with react, but this is the lamest one. Of course it solves many problems, that's why it landed at the top. It took the C out of MVC, it made view rendering deterministic and simplified event management. It also stayed somewhat stable on the API side over the years. | |
| ▲ | camoby 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’m not a fan of React at all, but React Native got me out of a jam when I had to build identical apps for AppleTV and Android/Amazon TV. |
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| ▲ | the__alchemist 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I will invert these: These are IMO not great software, but software that have name recognition because they were built and marketed by a giant company. |
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| ▲ | Bluescreenbuddy 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Some of that tech was developed over ten years ago |
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| ▲ | tbyehl 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's neat that I can now put an OCP NIC in a bog-standard server from the major players but I'm not sure that makes up for how everything else OCP becomes e-waste much faster than regular EIA-310 gear. |
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| ▲ | brendoelfrendo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would trade React for a world without Facebook any day of the week. |
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| ▲ | drstewart 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't get why people say Oppenheimer was a talented scientist when I don't want nuclear weapons to exist | |
| ▲ | foobarian 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Tastes better, more filling |
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| ▲ | Henchman21 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How have any of those made the world inhabited by humans in any way better? |
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| ▲ | NoGravitas 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | zstd is pretty good, but not so much better than the alternatives to justify any of Meta's harms. I like btrfs because it makes my backups simpler and faster, but I don't need it, and I'd happily go back to ext4 to be rid of Meta. |
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| ▲ | LadyCailin 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The Nazis pushed for anti smoking policies. |
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| ▲ | Apollorider 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [dead] |
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| ▲ | dallen33 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
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| ▲ | saulpw 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Yawn, I've used none of these except Linux and I would expect that their Linux contributions have been self-serving and not made it better for regular users like me. I mean, Hack? Who cares? |
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| ▲ | ipozgaj 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You use more than half of those on a daily basis just by using any piece of modern electronics or connecting to the internet. | | |
| ▲ | saulpw 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I also "use" Facebook tracking and ads and I'm not psyched about that either! | | |
| ▲ | ipozgaj 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You also use your phone that requires cobalt mined by child labor, wear clothes made by slave labor in countries like Vietnam and Bangladesh etc, so what's your point? The world is not black and white. | | |
| ▲ | saulpw an hour ago | parent [-] | | Original comment you responded to said "> [Meta] have arguably contributed nothing to society for over a decade" and you responded with a list of tech that is supposed to indicate their contribution. I'm not impressed. I'm also not impressed by fast fashion and child labor phones. Big Tech has been a scourge and 20% less web traffic because of zstd does not absolve them. |
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| ▲ | tempestn 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is your sole measure of value whether you personally use a thing? | |
| ▲ | smuhakg 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, you've never used a React website in your life or downloaded something with zstd despite them being defaults on the internet. |
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