| |
| ▲ | vdombr 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, they won't have a chance to rewrite cp and mv in Rust. | | |
| ▲ | greyw 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | ninjin 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "Can't even match GNU's coreutils"? Care to elaborate? Last time I checked OpenBSD is pretty much in line with Posix and there are plenty of us that consider many of the GNU extensions to be anti-features. | | |
| ▲ | mahboi 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I use a Mac, so the CLIs are the BSD versions. I don't have any opinion on which is better, but it's just annoying that it's different from GNU, so a lot of my work ends up being on a Linux VM or server instead. POSIX compliance doesn't seem to buy me anything. I like the BSD license though. | | |
| ▲ | jonhohle 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The GNU versions work fine in macOS. Apple doesn’t want to distribute them, but that’s mean you can’t use them. | | |
| ▲ | duskwuff 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Apple doesn’t want to distribute them Apple can't distribute them - coreutils is GPLv3, which is incompatible with Apple's immutable system volume. | |
| ▲ | mahboi 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Of course, but any script meant for Mac is going to assume Mac core utils, even assume zsh instead of bash. You don't want to be the one person on the team with a non-stock setup. | |
| ▲ | collinfunk an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The GNU versions work fine in macOS. Apple doesn’t want to distribute them, but that’s mean you can’t use them. We also test GNU coreutils on macOS. It is a bit tricky since the other maintainers and I don't own any macOS machines for testing. But we seem to do well enough with a shared system that Adélie Linux kindly allows the compile farm [1] to use, along with some additional CI machines. [1] https://portal.cfarm.net/ |
| |
| ▲ | Y_Y an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sounds like it's Apple who's behind | | |
| ▲ | mahboi 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | In some cases they are, but that's not the cause for the mismatch vs GNU. |
| |
| ▲ | frumplestlatz an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you stick to POSIX, things generally work everywhere. It's not really a question of what is better, just what is portable. | | |
| ▲ | mahboi 14 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I don't know how compatible my Mac will really be with a Free/OpenBSD machine. Last time I tested this theory, some C code I was building on Mac clang didn't build on FreeBSD clang cause I was unknowingly using some extension enabled by default. But that was about 12 years ago. |
|
| |
| ▲ | greyw 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Thats exactly what I mean. I dont care about Posix or the whining about "anti-features". The BSD stuff is a clear subset that doesnt get the job done. Posix is more an art form documenting the far gone past rather than a practical tool | | |
| ▲ | Calavar 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What are some GNU coreutil extensions that you find you can't live without? | | |
| ▲ | LtWorf 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The conventions for the long parameters on the command line. |
| |
| ▲ | ninjin 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | "[Doesn't] get the job done"? Well, it gets my job done. You are welcome to use whatever you subjectively prefer (I use GNU's date(1) for a few scripts, but would prefer the English date grammar parsing as a tool of its own), but if you are unable to talk about anything in concrete terms there is not point in trying to discuss in good faith and I will just roll my eyes and move on. |
| |
| ▲ | thomashabets2 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I am not the parent commenter, but I have the same sense that the GNU ones are better. But the only concrete example I can think of is that `cat -n a b`, if `a` doesn't end in a newline, produces something that is obviously not what the user wanted. GNU cat does it right. I didn't report it to the openbsd people because I didn't want them to yell at me that `-n` is nonstandard anyway with no "right" behavior, so I should STFU. Which would be what I'd expect from having reported problems in the past. |
| |
| ▲ | 0c3ca83 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's kind of like saying that the MacOS UI can't even keep up with Microsoft Windows. Who wants inconsistent GNU halfassery? | |
| ▲ | Quitschquat 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think that's a cultural thing in *BSD. |
|
| |
| ▲ | Krssst 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are already OSes that include LLM code (such as Linux). It's fine to have a few that don't. | | |
| ▲ | frumplestlatz an hour ago | parent [-] | | It is, but an already niche operating system that refuses to leverage the advantages of LLMs is only going to fall further and further behind. I say that as someone who has actively contributed to the BSDs since the 90s and would hate to see that happen. The slop problem is very real. People are spewing reams of bad code that generates entropy faster than humans or LLMs can clean it up. LLM best practices are not yet obvious, and we're still figuring out how best to leverage them while maintaining code quality and human understanding. ... but LLMs are coming whether we want them or not. Models keep consistently improving, the slop keeps getting better, and human-only development is going to struggle to keep up. In my day job, I'm driving an enormous number of tokens at Astra+Ultramax solving problems in Lean 4 that previously we never would have attempted simply due to the incredible human engineering cost; we review the high-level lemmas and let it prove the rest. LLMs are the only solution I've seen over these decades that could finally close the feature/usability gap between mainstream and more niche operating systems -- software support, features, drivers, and other broad usability barriers. All of that has historically been far too much work for a much smaller developer community to reasonably undertake. Hating AI isn't going to make it go away. | | |
| ▲ | margalabargala 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | What does "behind" actually mean, though? Think about how far Linux has/hasn't come in the last 10 years. The user experience is nicer, drivers "just work" more, there's more support for more stuff...but at the end of the day, the actual computing experience is mostly the same today as when I installed Debian back in 2016. It's polish, interoperability, etc that's improved. Maybe VR takes off and takes over the desktop, and then openBSD can't keep up with that, but I don't think that's likely. So what are they trying to "keep up" with? | | |
| ▲ | frumplestlatz 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The basic, broad usability barriers that prevent adoption by (or increase adoption costs for) many users today -- OS features, application support, hardware drivers, etc -- which has historically been far too much work for a much small developer community to reasonably maintain at parity with more mainstream operating systems. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | freedomben 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yep, drivers are one of if not the biggest blocker in my experience, and that's an area AI can help immensely | | |
| ▲ | segmondy 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Then vibe up the ones you need for yourself. | | |
| ▲ | Angostura 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | ‘Click to write and install driver’ | | |
| ▲ | overfeed 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > 'Click to write and install driver’ Theo de Raadt would spin in his grave — after the security implications of this to OpenBSD gives him a fatal aneurysm. Either that, or he'll surprise-launch OpenLLM, a model bundled in the next OpenBSD release that produces driver code free of security bugs. | | |
| ▲ | sterlind 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | honestly LLMs could probably write drivers in CompCert C or some other formally verified dialect. having AI discharge proof obligations seems like a terrific use for all this newly-developed mathematical process. you could have the driver code prove it implements a spec, that there's no UB, that hardware invariants are maintained, that routines take a fixed time to execute. the formal driver spec must still be written by sober, well-caffeinated humans of course. | | |
| ▲ | speed_spread 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's also assuming the device is fully documented and that hardware behaves exactly as documented. |
| |
| ▲ | ktta 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Theo de Raadt would spin in his grave Isn't he still alive? | | |
| ▲ | boomlinde 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > — after the security implications of this to OpenBSD gives him a fatal aneurysm. |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | lioeters an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Good. | |
| ▲ | shevy-java 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well, they were always slow. But they made a stand
against AI slop, which is great. Look at how AI slop
infiltrated the ruby core team. You even get slop-spammed
down when you try to interact with e. g. Hiroshi Shibata,
who suddenly has ... perfect english language skills. A
few years ago his command over the english language was rather
weak (which is fine by the way, I much prefer broken
english from a real human than AI slop spam text as filter acting in between humans). | | |
| ▲ | atmosx 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Then learn Japanese. No? So you can write broken Japanese and he doesn’t have to translate his words in English for you. |
| |
| ▲ | noosphr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you don't break the law you do indeed fall further behind people who do. Nothing in that post is against using an LLM. It's all about copyright: >Since every file in OpenBSD has been continually verified to ensure
correct Copyright, and we've even deleted code which has incorrect
Copyright, the chances of us accepting such new code with such a suspicious
Copyright situation is zero. Once the current bubble pops we're going to see a lot of litigation over copyright enfringement by LLMs. Currently no one wants to rock the boat because everyone hopes to make a trillion dollars from AI, Oracle included, once they see they can't the knives are going to come out and I wouldn't want to be Linux at that point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America | | |
| ▲ | greyw 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Copyright will adapt. Also my personal opinion about copyright _in the FOSS domain_ is that I simply dont care. Copyleft as the GNU folks like to call it is just using the copyright laws to achieves certain free software objectives. If that doesnt work anymore there will be another fix | | |
| ▲ | noosphr 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Copyright adaptation literally means billion dollar lawsuits, because copyright only adapts after court decisions. The BSD licences are not copyleft, or indeed part of the GNU copyright regime. | | |
| ▲ | vconnor 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, the billion dollar lawsuits that are coming after the trillion dollar ones that are gonna hit the AI industry any day now. Copyright is dead. | | |
| ▲ | steelframe an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | So long as there's big money interests around copyright, I assure you it will not die. And all the predictions about the knives coming out after the AI bubble pops are spot on. It took a while for the DMCA to happen after Napster. But it indeed happened, and we all know the saying about history repeating itself. | |
| ▲ | noosphr 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Copyright is dead. I remember hearing that in 1996 too. | | |
|
| |
| ▲ | toast0 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > my personal opinion about copyright _in the FOSS domain_ is that I simply dont care. You may not care, but if the OS you prefer to run is the defendant in a copyright case, that's likely to impact you in a negative way. | | |
| ▲ | JdeBP 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is amusing to see this point made in a discussion that is notionally about one of the BSDs. "Those that do not learn history" and so forth. |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | simonw 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Looks to me like it was made without AI assistance. https://github.com/NethIafin/wine/tree/openbsd-master | | |
| ▲ | asveikau 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Afaik I think I saw the author say on reddit he used AI to prototype and then rewrote it. https://www.reddit.com/r/openbsd/s/k0dz2WrkCo In that thread I suggested he submit it to the ports tree, I'm not sure if he took my advice or came up with the idea on his own. At any rate this is cool. | | |
| ▲ | NethIafin an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I never hid the fact that I iterated with AI. It's pretty hard to commit to an approach if you don't even know if it will succeed. And boy oh boy this was a shot in the dark. I also respect Wine and OpenBSD and their rules to not have any LLM code in the repo/ports. So my approach was to iterate over solutions, find approach that works, ask AI to "just see if my idea even works", learn what/how/why of that approach, generate some supporting manuals for myself (for example how to decode %gs instructions and how to reencode them) and then write my own code based just on decoding tables (and not LLM code). I did not know how to work with REX/SIB/ModRM, how to detect prefixes, how to parse every single instruction that contains %gs, how offsets work, how to encode jmp rels, why I want to use JMP *0(%RIP) instead of JMP 32rel on return, why I want to leave stub on SIGUSR (or any other signal). But I do know now. I was incredibly lucky that patching just these %gs instructions were enough to launch Factorio and play, with broken sound, but anyways! Holy molly this was and is so much FUN! The approach still feels like cheating, and if it feels the same for you, I perfectly understand. | | |
| ▲ | asveikau an hour ago | parent [-] | | I'm way more ai skeptical than most HN users and I don't think you did anything wrong. Like I said in the reddit thread, the patches are cool. Kudos. |
| |
| ▲ | MYEUHD 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, he said the same on the mailing list[0] when he asking about a related thing 3 weeks ago: > I had some success in porting Wine to amd64.OpenBSD. Was able to run a few =
games. But that required in memory patching of %gs commands (LLM's suggesti=
on and 1st implementation, then I re-did it from scratch - I'm not that sma=
rt with amd64 assembly code) Also, it's not a single author. Other people contributed significantly and their contributions don't seem written by AI: https://github.com/NethIafin/wine/commits/openbsd-master/ [0]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=179070255546118&w=2 | | |
| ▲ | NethIafin an hour ago | parent [-] | | At that time, that LLM built solution was like 3+ weeks old if not more. It's just me and Fabien for now though. Rest are working on helping us turn it into a nice Port Wine |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | NethIafin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Soon like with Speedrun submissions, we will have to show ourselves livestream coding to avoid any AI usage suspicions | |
| ▲ | ranger_danger 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you have any evidence to support this claim? | | |
| ▲ | baq 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | at this point in the timeline you need evidence to the contrary, safe to assume most code is AI generated or AI assisted at the very least | | |
| ▲ | mahboi 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If "slopcode" means code where the author consulted AI at all, yeah. But it's pretty easy to tell if the author AI-spammed without even reviewing all of it, or even if they did review it but didn't hand-type it. The email says "you did not write them, you said an AI did," so the author did admit to using AI at the same time they claimed copyright over the code. |
|
|
|