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▲ phyzome a day ago

16,000 words into the essay: "What I mean by clean"

...and it still doesn't answer it. What is this actually about?

▲emtel a day ago | parent | next [-]

It means that NNs don't (as previously thought) smoosh unrelated concepts together into the same neurons, which would have made interpretability very difficult.

For instance, if you had a single neuron that fires for "puppies" and "murder", it would be much more difficult to tell if the model is thinking something nice or something not so nice.

▲gfody a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"clean" means not hopelessly incomprehensible which is/was the prevailing consensus among interpretability researchers

the idea that most inexplicable circuits start making sense through the lens of recursive generalization seems intuitive to me for image diffusion models but I'm not so sure about language models because of the "once removed" nature of them - I haven't made it to the bottom of the article yet so maybe this gets addressed

▲lucrbvi a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It means that modern neural networks are way more interpretable than older ones. We can understand how they work way more easily than earlier ones.

▲BenoitP a day ago | parent [-]

For context: Goodfire has expertise in interpretability through a Sparse Auto Encoder technique of their own

https://www.goodfire.com/blog/a-practical-guide-to-saes

▲jsrozner a day ago | parent [-]

Sparse autoencoders are not reliable. Ask your favorite AI. For example, https://proceedings.mlr.press/v267/kantamneni25a.html

A lot of the mech interp techniques are glorified notions of probing. If models were generally interpretable with respect to the things we cared about, we'd know know when they're hallucinating, for example.

Identifying that a common neuron or set of neurons fires for golden gate bridge can be done only because you already know that you're looking for golden gate bridge. If models had recovered some new truth (e.g., the silver door road), you wouldn't be able to elicit it without knowing to look for it a priori.

▲aesthesia a day ago | parent | next [-]

Typically the analysis works in the reverse direction: we have a neuron (or SAE feature, or whatever) and we look at examples of data that makes it activate, then inferring an interpretation. This is a lot harder than probing for a known concept, and one of the points of this article is that if you try harder to understand the activation pattern, you will very often find that there is something interpretable there, even if at first glance it looked random.

▲D-Machine a day ago | parent | prev [-]

This was one of my intuitive concerns reading this post.

I've done work with trying to train explainable models for e.g. making diagnoses based on neuroimaging, and it is not clear to me that if you applied these techniques to e.g. vision models trained exclusively on such brain images, that these visual representations or conceptual clusters and relations would really help understanding at all.

The main issue would be that you'd have no clear way to verify any generated explanation for such training data. I.e. we can "verify" some of the explainability shown in the article because clear and recognizable image clusters and/or semantic groupings pop out, because we already understand the domains. But if this were fMRI or e.g. EEG signals, we really wouldn't have that, so the explanations would themselves just be more hypotheses.

Perhaps if we can build on interpretability of vision and language models in domains we understand, we can eventually generalize this to other domains, but I don't think that clearly follows from anything I am reading here.

▲wmf a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think "clean" means something like each neuron encodes exactly one concept and it's possible to discover what the concept is.

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent | next [-]

But they don't. That's the whole reason they work in the first place.

Every neuron in the layer encodes fractionally something about the concepts embedded in the whole thing. It's more like a hologram than a series of connected facts.

▲qt31415926 a day ago | parent [-]

Nick's claim is that that's the fundamental misinterpretation. Each neuron eventually ends up mostly doing one main thing (and the rare case that some neurons do several related things). Neurons compose to embed ideas which is a starkly different interpretation than them being holograms and fractional encodings.

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent [-]

Yes, I understand the claim. But it rests on the assumption that conflates multiple concepts that to me are substantially non-overlapping are one and the same thing. I would at least expect an explanation of why that is the case and so far I have not found it (at least not in the article).

If neurons do 'one thing' then their position encodes the relationships then snipping out that one weight would make the net forget that one thing. And we already know from many practical experiments that this is not the case. So I really wonder what the underlying mechanism is for that claim to be true.

▲qt31415926 a day ago | parent [-]

I wouldn't mix up "neurons do one thing" with "each thing lives only in one neuron" since he doesn't claim that.

Re the first paragraph I'm not sure what you mean by "the assumption that conflates multiple concepts that to me are substantially non-overlapping are one and the same thing"

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent [-]

That your ability to describe something does not necessarily equate to your ability to explain something.

There are lots of examples of things that we can describe to a very high degree (life itself, for instance!) but that we do not necessarily have the ability to explain.

▲qt31415926 a day ago | parent [-]

Ah okay that makes sense. Yeah ultimately I think Nick just gives hypothesis given what he's seen, and I'm not an expert in this field but it does seem to be driven by experimental results rather than mere description.

Personally from reading the article, I felt like it scratched the 'why' itch more than the 'what' itch which presumably is what you mean by explanation vs description but it is fairly dense and I can see how either interpretation would work.

▲ky3 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Doesn't "orthogonal" convey that meaning more crisply and precisely?

▲lanternfish a day ago | parent | next [-]

Orthogonal means something different in mechinterp, so it'd be an overloaded term. Usually orthogonal would imply that there are actual vectors under consideration, which isn't the underlying claim.

▲D-Machine a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Using "orthogonal" here would have the opposite effect, as it would impart a far more specific meaning which is also incorrect in this case.

▲est 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

by clean it means the opposite of "messy"

https://already-clean.goodfire.com/assets/superposition-circ...

That's the picture under "some are both dogs and cars" in the artcle

It's actually a clean shape, if you disregard the color and texture.

▲amelius a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Clean means no alchemy.