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▲ zahlman a day ago

I've been shown a fair few riots in the streets in the UK recently, just not regarding the price of electricity.

▲manarth 21 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Racism and immigration are the main topics which have recently generated violent protests.

Climate change and oil use have generated predominantly non-violent protests.

Palestinian rights have generated direct action protests but not riots.

Energy hasn't really been on the radar (except in the context of climate-change protests).

▲valesco 20 hours ago | parent [-]

I would make the hypothesis that racism outbursts are tied to worsening life conditions.

▲squidbeak 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Contrary to that hypothesis racists are just as racist when the going's good.

▲6031769 13 hours ago | parent [-]

True. But they aren't as rioty.

▲modo_mario 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because some of the worsening life conditions are caused by migration. On other fronts it may provide a benefit but people need to get their head out of their ass if they don't think some qualms are legitimate.

▲Timon3 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

To what degree? I'm sure migration is statistically responsible for some percentage of worsening life conditions, but I doubt it's the biggest cause for anything specific getting worse. The far bigger cause is the ever-increasing inequality and subsequent extraction by the powerful.

If migration is responsible for 5% of an issue, and other causes are responsible for 95%, it's far too easy to make the population imagine the numbers are swapped.

▲nothercastle 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Migrants are always an issue when the pie shrinks. You bring them in when the pie is growing but during contraction it goes the other way.

▲Timon3 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Since migrants aren't a major cause of the shrinking pie, this doesn't really help. It can actually hurt, since the pie can start shrinking faster.

▲zahlman 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Inequality" cannot reasonably be blamed for Rotherham or any other similar situations; it cannot be blamed for the findings of Lowe's report; it cannot be blamed for any of the video evidence recently surfacing of clear two-tier policing.

Rounding things off to "migration" is ignoring the state's role in all of this, deliberately, in order to present complainants as racist.

▲Timon3 6 hours ago | parent [-]

But you can be reasonably blamed for relentlessly bringing up anecdotes, without engaging with the words of others.

If you feel attacked by the word "migration", take it up with modo_mario.

▲tsss 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

20% of the whole population are immigrants. In the big cities, where problems are worst, it is far higher than that.

▲Timon3 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I can't respond to your point about problems in big cities, since you don't specify what they are, but rural areas have a whole host of problems that cities don't face, so I'm gonna need more than a vague assertion.

Though it still won't help your argument, because 1) correlation != causation, and 2) there are literally thousands of comparable correlations, so why is it immigrants, and not any of the others?

▲panick21_ 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Except that most evidence points against that. The people who don't live next to immigrants are generally much more angry then those that do. And the general places where people are angry about living conditions are former industrial economic heartland that have de-industrialized for reasons that have literally zero to do immigration.

Even in Japan people claim immigrants are the problem even if they are a group that barley exists at all.

▲gadders 12 hours ago | parent [-]

>> The people who don't live next to immigrants are generally much more angry then those that do.

Lol. Ask people in Crowborough and Piddington if that's true.

▲panick21_ 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Using individual example instead of overall statistics is an indication that you are not actually seriously engaging with the topic.

Individual examples are results of specific circumstances and not indication of a universal trend.

▲zahlman 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How come you get to argue by assertion but your opponents don't?

▲gadders 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They very much are.

▲Timon3 6 hours ago | parent [-]

There are literally millions of examples against your position.

▲user43928 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I question to what degree people are riled up over economic difficulty being scapegoated onto immigrants like the comment chains below seem to claim.

This explanation seems to ignore much more obvious motivations. Most of the recent violent protests were triggered by concerns about immigrants committing violent crime and sexual offenses or harassment, often following concrete incidents.

Public safety seems like the clear primary motivation here.

One could make an argument in the direction that this is fueled by elites trying to distract from other issues.

However, I think that glossing over the primary concern to claim that the outrage is essentially engineered or purely driven by economic factors and living standard, will not convince the public. At least that's my opinion.

▲zahlman 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> One could make an argument in the direction that this is fueled by elites trying to distract from other issues.

Which elites, possibly? The anti-immigrant views are represented by fringe parties (albeit ones that are getting more votes than many would be comfortable with) and all sorts of mainstream political leaders are constantly condemning them. Social media is the only reason the stories spread, practically speaking; international news barely even cares about things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Ceuta_migrant_crisis (where the number of people involved approximately matched the population of Ceuta itself).

At any rate, I can't say I particularly hear these protesters, or their representatives, talking about economic factors all that much. Certainly it comes up, but only with explicit reference to biased government policy and not as just some natural pie-sharing effect.

▲pjc50 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nah, they're directly driven by social media radicalization. And in some cases fairly obviously traceable foreign actors.

It's just an immense right wing noise machine which makes it impossible to actually focus on finding solutions. We're back to people who want to improve electricity per capita by decapitating people.

People hate electricity prices, but they hate electricity infrastructure as well. They hate pylons, they hate renewables, they hate nuclear. People hate pollution and hate anti-pollution measures (see the LEZ insanity). Every solution will encounter angry blockers, often angry about things that aren't even real (anti-5G lunatics). And they want to blame everything on foreigners. Absolutely childish behavior of our """elite""", the dead hand of which sits on our media and most of our parties.

I think everything that needs to be said in this thread probably already has been by someone. Re-litigating the same issues.

▲amiga386 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> hate anti-pollution measures (see the LEZ insanity)

Try this out. Have the government mandate that everyone buy a certain type of car/van. Tell them it's good for the environment and give them tax incentives to do it. Then, years after everyone's invested in that type of car/van, have the government ban that type of car/van in major urban centres. Tell them to throw the car/van away and buy another one.

And tell them that if they don't do that, you'll fine them every day, when they drive to the place they've been driving to all their adult lives for work, etc.

Announce that this applies to everyone at the same time, so there's near-zero resale value in the old type of car/van, and there's massive demand pushing the price up for the new type of car/van.

Most people don't have a spare £20,000 kicking about, and if they did, they wouldn't choose to spend it on that. Throwing away their existing car/van and buying another doesn't give them £20,000 of value. It gives them £0 of value. They already had a car/van. It might give some kids' lungs value, but not them.

Honestly, try it. Try forcing millions of people into spending a lot of money all at once, and see how popular you are. Bonus: now try blaming social media or some other fifth column for your unpopularity!

▲pjc50 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is, of course, not what happened. It's not even all that unpopular. Only about half of Londoners even have a car in the first place.

When I say radicalized, I mean this guy: https://www.cps.gov.uk/national-news/news/updated-sentence-m...

▲manarth 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's also this:

    > "The ULEZ camera had already been cut down"
The camera was already useless. Detonating an IED served no purposeful protest, and endangered property and lives.
▲youngtaff 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There's also a huge racial undertone to the whole London anti-ULEZ 'debate' as Sadiq Khan is a muslim

Those opposing ULEZ conveniently ignore the Conservative government led by Boris Johnson (ex mayor of London) made ULEZ implementation a key requirement for supporting TfL funding during the pandemic

Despite anti-ULEZ folk claiming it's hugely unpopular Kahn convincing won the next mayoral election including some boroughs that were affected by the ULEZ zone expansion

▲amiga386 16 hours ago | parent [-]

> huge

I think you overstate this. While there are wingnuts on Twitter who hate Khan for who he is, massively more people hate him - any politician, not just him - for dipping into their pocket and taking their money. "For the greater good".

Even the most beloved politican on the planet will become the most hated as soon as the propose increasing taxes, or increasing household costs. Which is why they're always looking for the sneakiest way to do it.

> Those opposing ULEZ conveniently ignore the Conservative government led by Boris Johnson (ex mayor of London) made ULEZ implementation a key requirement for supporting TfL funding during the pandemic

Alternatively, the central authority with all the money (Johnson's government) tells the devolved authority (Mayor of London) it doesn't like handing out free money, so what if our lockdown has decimated your cashbox income... so in exchange for money now to keep the lights on during this pandemic, I demand you make more of your own money in future, by fining people and by driving up public transport usage in your area. Also, I know how unpopular it is, which is why I delayed it when I was Mayor of London, so good luck at the polls ha ha!

> some

"some" indeed.

▲youngtaff 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> “some” indeed

Well he flipped one of them from Conservative and didn’t lose any of the ones that had previously voted for him and his vote was up overall

▲amiga386 5 hours ago | parent [-]

On the other hand, the Uxbridge and Ruislip by-election. Should've been a shoo-in for Labour, given it was disgraced Partygate BoJo stepping down. Labour won another by-election on the same day. But not this one. Reason? Most likely local anger over ULEZ expansion, even though that's the responsibility of the (Labour) Mayor, not the Labour Party generally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Uxbridge_and_South_Ruisli...

> Both Labour's leader, Keir Starmer, and deputy leader, Angela Rayner, blamed opposition to ULEZ, with Starmer suggesting the Labour London Mayor Sadiq Khan should rethink the policy. Khan defended the policy and Starmer soon sought to heal the rift. The defeated Labour candidate, Beales, also criticised the ULEZ policy.

So someone paid the electoral price for Khan's policy, it just wasn't him.

▲youngtaff 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Reduced fuel duty for diesel came in in 2001 (25yrs ago) and was removed following the scandal of manufacturers cheating the emissions tests in 2015 (11 yrs ago)

We've known diesel emissions are bad for health for a long time and ULEZ schemes improve people's health, particularly children https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1l1r1zne1ro

But some selfish people still think it's their right to drive highly polluting vehicles and let everyone else bear the cost

ULEZ / LEZ zones are a good thing

▲mitxela 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What kind of car/van was it? Since you said car/van and not car or van, I assume there's more than one?

▲amiga386 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Diesel cars/vans. In 2001, the government cut yearly road tax to £20 for cars/vans emitting less than 110g/km of CO2. Many car/van diesel engines can meet this but few petrol engines can. The road tax normally costs £180-£300, so a £160+ saving every year.

So a lot of people moved to diesel cars/vans from 2001 onward.

Then in 2019, the Ultra Low Emission Zone was set around central London, which issued daily fines to:

- petrol cars/vans that didn't meet Euro 4 standards (most vehicles pre-2006)

- diesel cars/vans that didn't meet Euro 6 standards (most vehicles pre-2015)

This didn't bother that many people, because central London already has a daily congestion charge, so anyone taking a vehicle in there already had business to justify it. Most people get around central London by train/tube/bus/taxi, it's the best served city in the UK for public transport. There was also a scrappage scheme offering up to £9500 for replacing the vehicle.

What bothered a LOT of people, though, is the widening of the ULEZ area, first to the inner London orbital in 2021 and then to the whole of Greater London (9 million people) in 2023, regardless of whether they went to central London or not. The outer boroughs, aren't as well served by public transport as central London is, and car/van ownership and use is much higher than central London. And of course, the scrappage scheme was cut down to a maximum of £2000, which is not a lot.

You can perhaps see why there was so much opprobrium.

▲youngtaff 15 hours ago | parent [-]

There wasn't 'much opprobrium', there were a bunch of radicalised mainly white men opposing it who made a lot of noise backed by right wing newspapers who want to criticise Kahn for Tory government policy

Kahn won the next election including outer boroughs that were affected by the ULEZ expansion

https://metro.co.uk/2024/05/04/map-reveals-london-mayor-elec...

▲amiga386 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't know why you want to bring race into this. The split is along car ownership/non-ownership, or city-oriented vs countryside-oriented. The outer boroughs more often need to use cars, and work/visit outside the M25, than the people in inner boroughs. Uxbridge is 85% white, so you can expect an issue facing everyone there to be "mainly white".

What the election map on your article shows is a bunch of outer boroughs ("some"?) choosing the Tory candidate over the Labour one, there just weren't enough of them overall. Elections aren't usually single-issue, and there's probably enough value in reelecting Kahn (or his opponents are odious enough), that forcing a large number of people to set their money on fire didn't entirely wreck his chances.

But you'll note that lessons have been learned. Back in 2019, the IEA were demanding the complete ban of gas boilers by 2026. The government never adopted such a policy, it's only too well aware at how much needless cost and effort it'd put the entire country through by making 80% of households throw out their heating system and buy another one, for the sake of the planet. So that's why the closest the government got to that was proposing in 2020/2021 maybe banning them by 2035. And now? The government is reassuring people that it won't ban gas boilers; not in 2026, not in 2035, not in 2050, not ever. It saw what banning cars in London kicked off. It doesn't want that for itself.

▲manarth 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They're referring to LEZ (Low Emission Zone) legislation where a fee is charged for vehicles which exceed a defined emission threshold.

In general, diesel vehicles are more likely to exceed the emission threshold.

▲zahlman 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> And in some cases fairly obviously traceable foreign actors.

If they are "fairly obviously traceable" then surely you can name some and provide reasonable evidence?

▲mr_toad 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Nah, they're directly driven by social media radicalization.

It’s much easier to radicalise someone who is already disaffected.

▲mitxela 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Social media is a catalyst that only works because material conditions are bad. If everyone is happy, and social media tells them there's a Muslim invasion, they just laugh it off. If everyone is angry, and social media tells them there's a Muslim invasion, they burn down a mosque.

It's a pattern that's been repeated several times before in history, most famously in Germany: whenever capitalism creates bad times, society chooses one of two ways out: either socialism or fascism. Right now several countries are seeing surges in popularity of the far left and the far right, which is this exact pattern playing out in real time before our eyeballs. While the established capitalist politicians always promise nothing except more of the same decline, and thus become unpopular when everyone is feeling the decline and inequality, socialist candidates promise to directly fix the cause of the inequality, and fascism is propped up by the causes of the inequality to divert attention away from themselves. Again, this pattern has already played out many times and is pretty hard to refute at this point.

▲pjc50 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Considering the number of people involved in the hotel arson attacks who have "previous", including domestic violence convictions, I think you can say that they themselves are unhappy, but that's not quite the same thing.

> fascism is propped up by the causes of the inequality to divert attention away from themselves

I think we can agree on this. It's not that the UK is in any way a poor country in total, but it is an unequal one. And open to the negative effects of inequality from the outside - see the involvement of UAE oligarchs in Man City fraud, for example.

▲watwut 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Meh, economic excuse is jist that - excuse so that the perpetrators sound better.

▲ilikerashers 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Very true.

The establishment view is that riots and racism are right wing agitators and foreign power influenced. The people look to rival immigrants and conspiracies, united by anxiety and fear.

They are both looking for scapegoats. This has unfortunately lead to so many atrocities in history.

▲multjoy 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I would make the hypothesis that racism outbursts are driven by Farage, Tommy Ten-Names, Putin and the right wing engagement mill that is Twitter.

▲gib444 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Riled up about all the wrong things. How convenient !