| ▲ | simondotau 2 hours ago |
| The health of the web as an open platform is defined by browser diversity, not browser choice. As the only major platform that hasn’t been functionally taken over by Chrome/chromium, iOS represents the last real defensive line against Google owning the web. Remember, you are a web developer, not a chrome platform developer. Don’t be complicit in Google’s slow-moving coup. The only people who complain about Safari are lazy web developers who fail to appreciate what it means for the web to be an open platform. Testing your website on two browser engines (and accepting that not everything is going to work perfectly in both) is literally the lowest bar expected of you. |
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| ▲ | hungryhobbit 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| >Remember, you are a web developer, not a chrome platform developer. Don’t be complicit in Google’s slow-moving coup. This reflects a fundamental misunderstanding, much like how many think standards groups (e.g. W3C) decide how the browsers works. (Standards groups can invent the best feature ever for the Web ... and it won't matter in the slightest if browser makers don't adopt it. ALL STANDARDS ARE SET BY BROWSER MAKERS ... the standards bodies are just the mechanism they use to do it.) Likewise, the browser a web developer user uses is already set for them. EVERY web dev (except those at companies big enough to care about the "long tail" of browsers) uses one browser: the most popular one. It has nothing to do with politics or being complicit, and everything to do with "You have a job to do, why would you make it take twice as long by testing everything with an unpopular browser, when 99 out of 100 times that testing will find nothing and be a total waste of your time?" |
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| ▲ | simondotau 7 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > This reflects a fundamental misunderstanding No, it doesn't. I'm not talking about web standards bodies. I'm talking about the practical reality of the web as a platform that is resilient against slight differences between browsers. This resilience can only come from developers who understand that their job is to target the web and not just Chrome. It is you who misunderstands: > It has nothing to do with politics or being complicit, and everything to do with "You have a job to do, why would you make it take twice as long by testing everything with an unpopular browser, when 99 out of 100 times that testing will find nothing and be a total waste of your time?" You are literally arguing for the web to become the Chrome Platform for the convenience of web developers. Sure we can have other browsers, so long as they're perfectly compatible with Chrome's quirks. This is precisely what it means for the web to be the Chrome Platform, not the open web. THIS is the problem. |
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| ▲ | doginasuit an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The health of the web as an open platform is defined by browser diversity, not browser choice. This is a wild statement. For an individual user, what is the point of browser diversity if you are locked into your browser by OS? A weird number of people here are okay with this particular example of anti-consumer behavior simply because it offsets the chrome monopoly. That's not a healthy web, that's competing layers of dysfunction. |
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| ▲ | simondotau 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | For an individual user, what is the point of browser choice when developers stop testing in Safari and instead say "if it doesn't work, install Chrome". That's not giving the consumer a choice. | | |
| ▲ | doginasuit 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The Healthy Web in 2026: Some users can't have a choice so other users can. | |
| ▲ | edoceo 24 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are three choices: use Safari for sub-par site experience, use Chrome for compatible, don't use the site. | | |
| ▲ | simondotau 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yes, except the Safari experience is only sub-par because the developer chose to use some bleeding edge feature that doesn't fall back gracefully, or is relying on a Chrome bug, or a lax feature implementation in Chrome. There's no reason for Safari to have a sub-par experience except for the laziness of some web developers. | | |
| ▲ | crab_galaxy 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | 100vh, PWAs, and full screen support that isn’t absolute garbage aren’t exactly bleeding edge features |
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| ▲ | leptons 42 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >The only people who complain about Safari are lazy web developers who fail to appreciate what it means for the web to be an open platform Maybe you don't understand that I have to spend several hundred dollars for the privilege to debug Safari's shitty bugs. That's FUCKED UP. It isn't "being lazy". I shouldn't have to spend money so I can cater to a shitty browser. And Apple does some weird-ass things with their browser that make it wonky, and you can't debug some things without an apple device. Touch events are one particular iffy thing Apple does differently, because "think different" apparently means "we do whatever the fuck we want so pay us to debug things that shouldn't need debugging". >Testing your website on two browser engines (and accepting that not everything is going to work perfectly in both) is literally the lowest bar expected of you. Give me $500 to buy an Apple device and I'll fix things so it works for the shitty browser iOS users are forced to use. It has not a single fucking thing to do with "being lazy", and you're a shitty person for suggesting that's how this works. |
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| ▲ | simondotau 36 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I've had to pay thousands of dollars on Android devices I don't want in order to test my website and fix shitty Chrome bugs. I sucked it up. You can too. If the cost really is an issue for you, I'm sure you know that you aren't forced to pay $500 to Apple. You can easily find hand-me-down Apple devices that still runs a current operating system for a pittance -- or free if you have a network of friends or family. No need to pay Apple anything. |
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| ▲ | vrganj 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Safari is a dirty monopolist on mobile just as much as Chrome is on desktop. |
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| ▲ | simondotau 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I reject your assertion because it promulgates the lie of "browser choice". The health of the web as an open platform is defined by browser diversity, not browser choice. A bit of forced diversity is wildly preferable over another collapse towards monoculture. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > The health of the web as an open platform is defined by browser diversity, not browser choice. Says who? I certainly don't agree with that statement, the "web as an open platform" was unrecognizable when proprietary clients were the norm. | | |
| ▲ | simondotau an hour ago | parent [-] | | If web developers stop ensuring their sites work in Safari, consumers will be forced to install Chrome. That's not browser choice. An open platform means that CONSUMERS get to choose which browser they use, not web developers. (And before you say it, consumers can choose Android, where 99.9% of people use Chrome, but apparently that's okay because they "chose" it.) | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It's a chicken-and-egg problem. How can you get web developers to test their websites in Safari, when the majority of Mac devs haven't opened Safari in ages? We have the answer already. Safari doesn't compete on it's own merit. WebKit is a second-class citizen on the web, and we can argue about why that is, but nobody can sincerely deny it. Apple's strategy has been dead in the water for over a decade. iOS lost. | | |
| ▲ | simondotau 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Safari is still relevant and iOS hasn't lost; the very existence of this thread serves as a clear rejection of that framing. If Safari wasn't competing, or if iOS had lost, nobody would care. Meanwhile we have people bitching and moaning and meanwhile, as a Firefox user, I go to Safari when I encounter a website that doesn't work in Firefox. Because at the end of the day, developers are forced to test in Safari, and that is a Good Thing. No developer is forced to test in Firefox. |
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| ▲ | vrganj an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | But there is no browser diversity on mobile. I'd like to use Firefox on iOS. | | |
| ▲ | simondotau an hour ago | parent [-] | | There is absolutely browser diversity on mobile. ~30% of people are using Safari on iOS. ~70% of people are using Chrome on Android (and have the "choice" to use Firefox but don't). | | |
| ▲ | edoceo 21 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Maybe folk mean that iOS only uses Safari rendering regardless of which wrapper is running? Meaning Apple users don't have a choice, one rendering engine only, not diverse. | | |
| ▲ | simondotau 18 minutes ago | parent [-] | | No, vrganj said mobile. There is browser diversity on mobile devices by virtue of operating system diversity on mobile devices. |
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| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
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