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▲ Stevvo 8 hours ago

I've learnt more since the advent of LLMs than I did in the 10 years prior. And it's not just me; that is most people's experience with LLMs. But most of those people would also concur with your apocalyptic thinking. AI is the apocalypse for thinking, except for me, only I am smart enough and experienced enough to maintain my cognitive ability while using LLMs.

▲0x696C6961 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The problem is that if you take away the LLM, all of a sudden you can't do any of the things you "learned". It's confusing familiarity with understanding.

▲beardbandit 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The learning is at that level of abstraction, so yes taking away the abstraction prevents will stymy you.

Just like if you pressed a button to wipe out our main language stack at our job, yeah none of us would know how to do anything with assembly or machine code.

▲beej71 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Just like if you pressed a button to wipe out our main language stack at our job, yeah none of us would know how to do anything with assembly or machine code.

All the devs would spend a couple weeks learning assembly and go on coding. And all the non-dev vibe coders would be unable to continue.

So I don't think it's quite the same.

▲jorl17 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

*Many* devs would be completely incapable of learning assembly. Heck, many would be unable to learn C.

Likewise, *many* vibecoders would absolutely fail to adapt, and some would adapt, with this being their first experience. Just think of how many people started coding by using old gamemaker tools or scratch, or playing silly games. It is not the same as an LLM, but the idea that it is a gateway is definitely there. I wouldn't call LLMs "programming", because they're doing more: they're building products, which involves a lot more than programming -- hence why the skills to really thrive with LLMs are not just those of a good developer or engineer.

But weeks? I'd say less than 10% of the devs I've known my entire life would develop properly in assembly (and I'm being quite generous). Memory management, pointers, registers...just to name a few.

I think far too many people fail to realize that, with LLMs, the brain of a good problem solver, especially one with engineering background, gets much better results than someone with different characteristics. Similarly, the mind of a good product developer (and even someone with good UX inclination) does a much better job and building usable products.

This idea that LLMs are doing all of the work is frankly mind-boggling to me. It must stem from vastly different experiences of what LLMs do or whomever is using them around who says these claims. Obviously they do a lot of work, especially in the development prototyping, architecture and even ideation parts. But they only do (almost) "all of the work" in very simple or bad apps.

I've seen loads of terrible vibe-coding jobs: UX is terrible, bugs everywhere, clearly no consideration at any point for architecture (and thus the product is barely holding on). And I've seen the opposite: products that feel and act like premium stuff, because they were built by people with true love for what they do, sometimes even with a very good problem solving mind to add to that (leading to a not-so-terrible-albeit-still-barely-holding-on-but-thats-clearly-good-enough-for-the-product architecture). For every good app there are maybe 100 lovable apps that all look the same and break the second you do the wrong sequence of clicks, but the good ones do exist.

It's a tool that enables mediocrity to exist where it didn't previously, but it also empowers so many people in incredible ways. Still, you definitely need to be good at using the tool, and it definitely doesn't just happen overnight.

▲seanmcdirmid an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Isn't OS still required for a CS degree? Didn’t we all write our own kernel and virtual memory system in MIPs assembly code? We’ve been here before, I’m sure a lot of future AI coders will be forced to learn the abstraction stack like we did in a formal CS program.

▲beej71 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, I'm only a few years from retirement, so maybe the demographics are different now, I grant. Used to be everyone learned assembly in college.

▲YZF 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think some still do. But writing a few lines of code in some computer architecture course isn't really enough. It's not just the language, it's the libraries and not understanding how things work under the hood.

▲onion2k an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Used to be everyone learned assembly in college.

I imagine that was x86, which was relatively easy but also horrible. Very few people are writing assembly today because you'd need to be able to do x86-64 SIMD, ARM64, and maybe RISC-V, which are all quite a bit more complicated.

▲seanmcdirmid an hour ago | parent | next [-]

MIPS, because of the books provided for computer architecture (Hennessy and Paterson) were written by the MIPs designers. No one I knew of learned X-86, the Dragon compiler book however had all its examples in VAX assembly.

▲solyin an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It was MIPS for me, which isn't widely used in industry, but it did the job.

▲aeon_ai 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> All the devs would spend a couple weeks learning assembly and go on coding

A couple weeks?! Really slacking, why not a few hours?

Add the violin and calculus while they're at it.

▲gboss 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Assembly is simple. You can learn it quickly. It’s writing a large program in it that’s hard. How roller coaster tycoon was written in it boggles my mind.

▲0x696C6961 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My guy, that's like calling McDonald's a higher level abstraction for cooking. Ordering a big mac doesn't make you a chef.

▲avgDev 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nobody says it does. However, if I am solving big business problems and making enough to justify a private cook, why wouldn't I do that to optimize and focus on my area of expertise?

I don't want to be a code monkey. I want to talk to business people and come up with solutions. I don't care if LLM writes most of it or a junior dev...well I do LLM is better.

▲ThrowawayR2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Ironic that the parent poster should use the phrase "code monkey" since most would likely agree being an "LLM prompt monkey" is an even lower rung on the ladder than that. The business people can surely find a LLM prompt monkey for much less salary than what a code monkey gets so I'm not sure anyone would want to embrace that future. In fact, if the AI gets good enough, the business people won't need the LLM prompters at all; they'll talk to the AI themselves.

▲Elsewhereindeed 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

From the way you're writing, you'll fit right in with the 'business people' since they dont have any clue half the time either.

▲0c3ca83 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The issue is that the business problem you're solving is the problem of producing food. Why should you be kept around as the middleman, instead of hiring the chef directly?

▲lmz 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

The same reason middle management is still around today.

▲alternatex 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

AI has been a catastrophe for middle management jobs though

▲lolakutty 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> and come up with solutions.

Why? Can't the business people talk to LLMs and have it come up with solutions?

▲jorl17 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure, many do and fail. I wonder why?

▲0x696C6961 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Seems like the LLM has already impacted your reading comprehension. We're talking about learning here, not the overall value of LLMs.

▲ofrzeta 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In case you've never seen it before, you can watch how a burger's made (in case of LLMs anyway) and eventually replicate it. You can also inspect the recipe after the fact to learn.

▲gyomu 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> if you take away the LLM, all of a sudden you can't do any of the things you "learned"

What? That is absolutely not true. I've been using LLMs for language learning, math/physics, clarify home improvement best practices that I now regularly think about, etc. and that knowledge is not LLM-bound at all. Instead of acquiring from a regular textbook, I acquired it from a model.

▲morsch an hour ago | parent [-]

You distilled it. That's stealing!

▲thoughtpeddler 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As an educator (of working professionals / continuing education), I see first-hand the range of AI use amongst the population (and even my population is not a representative sample, as it's people who are intrinsically geared towards being interested in building with AI), but your experience unfortunately probably reflects around ~30% of the population. The other third I'm slightly less hopeful about, but they might have a chance merely surviving, and the latter third I'd place in the 'full cognitive offloading / total abdication of all thinking and learning to machines' - for them, as the kids say: ngmi. Even within me as a single individual, I can sense the times AI is so tempting to offload cognition, and other times where it has been like a 100x speedup in my own innate skills and abilities. The future has come on quick, and we are barely getting to adjust healthily to it.

▲selicos an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But can you retain, process, and make use of that learning?

For me it's more like googling the capital of Nova Scotia. I used to know that, but I can google it more easily than memorize it.

▲tourmalinetaco an hour ago | parent [-]

I mean, it depends.

Like, unless it is somehow relevant to your daily life knowing the capital of Nova Scotia is literally useless. Same with all the history I learned in middle school. Remembering takes repetition, and so retaining the information I learn needs a habit of review and processing. And a lack thereof (alongside the brain seeking to offload information, bc information is expensive) is why you forgot the capital city.

I find I remember things best when I jot them down, and personally I’ve been needing to journal more, writing down my ideas and what I learn when discussing my ideas with LLMs, though I’ve also noticed that using the LLM as a rubber duck has actively helped my memory due to more review and processing and needing to “teach” my ideas to the model.

▲pier25 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I too use LLMs to learn different technical topics and generally like them for this. That said I think we’re in the minority. I don’t think most people use these tools to learn.

▲qmmmur 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You just feel like you have learned those things. Without the LLM all of the “skills” are lost.

▲ragequittah 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I push back on this idea hard. There's some things I consider not worth my time since an LLM will always be available to do it for me. But a whole lot of things you can learn far better with a LLM than almost anywhere else.

Been learning Linux, how to build a homelab, and quite a few other related topics since about chatgpt 3.5. If the LLM went away tomorrow I'd still know how to do most things in Linux, set up my opnsense router, reinstall xcp-ng, do everything in docker, and a boatload of other things that would've been so much more tedious to learn before an LLM. Simplicity of access to knowledge doesn't mean you don't learn it. A google search didn't make us learn slower than when we had to scour for books at the library, it increased the pace dramatically. Same goes for LLMs.

You can use LLMs and learn nothing. People who like to learn won't ever use it that way.

▲literalAardvark an hour ago | parent [-]

> Simplicity of access to knowledge doesn't mean you don't learn it

Except that it does, learning is mediated by _effort_.

Was it hard? Then what did you gain by using AI?

Was it easy? Then you didn't learn

▲lordnacho 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

It's not as simple as that.

If you're building a home lab, you might just give up because you are tired of searching for Cisco router syntax.

LLM can be the little bit of lube you need to understand things at a higher level, because the tedious things are not as bad as they used to be.

You then end up actually getting a few things in your lab to work correctly, get a confidence boost, and follow up with some searches about how routing actually works and why the syntax is the way it is.

▲RHSman2 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I think there are truths in there but depends on your view.

If you have a finite time and have a goal, is learning something that takes a longer time better towards that goal than being able to move fast and accumulate more capabilities that are on hand when you ‘forget’ them?

The answer engines and the context around my goals allow me to move at an unprecedented pace and move into places that were just not possible before.

But, the nuances learned concepts are indeed skipped over or Pareto’d

▲bpshaver 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> And it's not just me; that is most people's experience with LLMs.

Uh... bold claim. What's your evidence?

▲mpalmer 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

    And it's not just me; that is most people's experience with LLMs
Got a source better than vibes on that one?
▲cowpig 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I feel like language models help me search through concepts really quickly, and will also help me understand things just well enough to use those concepts more quickly. So they kind of narrow what I learn down to exactly what I need in the moment.

I don't think I'm actually learning more though. I think the act of banging my head against the wall to learn something the hard way teaches me more, but feels harder and is slower.

But then I really retain it, and I've also learned a bunch of meta-skill in the process.

So I think it's just different. Now it's harder to force myself to bang my head against the wall when the easier path is so accessible. Used to just have far fewer available paths because they were too hard.

▲paul7986 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If and when smart glasses ubiquitious do all humans become know it alls with the answers to our questions always right in front of us? If so how will that change how we learn?

▲loloquwowndueo 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hey you forgot /s at the end.

▲lelanthran 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

▲therein 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Same but I am leaning towards it being sarcastic.

▲kurthr 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

... You are absolutely right!