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▲ nervai 4 hours ago

Reminder that the US administration is on a campaign to dismantle the ICC for echoing similar findings to this Nobel Prize winner in her role at UNHRC [1].

I'm extremely grateful to, and humbled by, these people continuing their brave work knowing they will face the full wrath of the US and Israel govs and their campaigns to dismantle accountability for the worst crimes.

[1] https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/20...

▲vincnetas 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"The ICC poses an intolerable threat to U.S. sovereignty – it claims the authority to prosecute and even imprison American servicemen and officials operating on behalf of America’s national interest. Americans never signed up for this, and all American presidents since the ICC’s ratification have maintained that the ICC does not have jurisdiction over Americans. The ICC previously opened an investigation into U.S. servicemen and intelligence officers and has since refused to close these cases."

Yeah, but somehow if i do some illegal shit according to USA they have no problem arresting me when i come visit (or if they really eager they come to visit me). But how dare you tell us what we can do or cant do INTOLERABLE.

▲Telemakhos 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, that’s what sovereignty means: a sovereign state governs itself and is not governed by others. A sovereign state can agree to abide by certain rules or submit some disputes to another arbiter, but it does so consensually by treaty. The US never ratified a treaty establishing the authority of the ICC, so it has not consented to that diminution of sovereignty.

You as an individual are not sovereign, and when you come to the land over which the US is sovereign, you are subject to US law.

▲freehorse 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You as an individual are not sovereign, and when you come to the land over which the US is sovereign, you are subject to US law.

And if an american, whom ICC have found guilty on crimes, visits a country which upholds ICC rulings they should be arrested, no?

Nobody talked about kidnapping people in the US or doing anything similar. In contrast, the US is in a habit on (among others)

1. kidnapping

2. bombing

3. otherwise assassinating

4. sanctioning

5. demanding extradition (the only actual "legal" part)

foreign citizens that they do not like. We can also say that no other, non american citizen has actually agreed to these practices either, nor to US authority to be the world serif. So these arguments more like read like monopoly of global violence/authority than "sovereignty".

▲cycomanic 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The main part of the argument is that the US is very happy to apply their laws to foreign citizens for things they have done on foreign soil and are also happy to legally or illegally extract those citizens from the foreign states. That does in fact directly violate those other states sovereignty.

▲weberer 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>foreign citizens for things they have done on foreign soil

When has this ever happened? You might be referring to Maduro's extradition, but that was due to him being charged with smuggling mass amounts of cocaine into the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution_of_Nicol%C3%A1s_Ma...

▲j_maffe 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Sanctioning ICC judges. They did nothing relevant to US citizens.

▲dudefeliciano 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ever heard of extraordinary renditions?

▲tosapple 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

i was just going to bring this up, but a different aspect: I'm not curious about the drug charges, I'm curious about the gun charges as unlevied.

▲yread 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Conversely, American individuals are also not sovereign so when they come to a sovereign land where they are sought (by the state or its partners through treaties) for crimes, they are subject to the the state's laws and treaties.

▲brookst 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This would more persuasive if the US didn’t have a long history of prosecuting, even kidnapping, foreign nationals on foreign soil for violations of US law.

▲Ozzie_osman 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The US never ratified a treaty establishing the authority of the ICC, so it has not consented to that diminution of sovereignty.

True, they could ignore the ICC, but they shouldn't go around sanctioning and punishing and threatening its judges.

▲vincnetas 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So it should be no surprise to USA that sovereign countries that abide to ICC rulings take actions against individual USA citizens.

▲pirate787 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This isn't true, the US considers prosecution by the ICC as an act of war.

▲tgv 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> a sovereign state governs itself and is not governed by others

Hence, if anyone commits a crime in another country, they fall under the jurisdiction of that country. So while the US doesn't have to recognize the ICC, listen to it, or follow its verdicts, other countries are free to do so.

But now the US is threatening the judges of the ICC, which is hypocritical to say the least. It's more of a mafia thing, really. Not surprising, given Trump's background.

▲Vaslo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes because the only law that the US needs to recognize is its own.

▲khalic 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Oh but others must recognize America's laws right? Oh the hypocrisy

▲Vaslo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It’s not hypocrisy. Don’t follow them. But when your interests conflict with ours, then we will exert our influence.

▲bad_haircut72 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

As Americas star continues to wane over the coming decades y'all are really going to regret this "might makes right" stance.

▲Vaslo a minute ago | parent [-]

Not very worried about it. Im 100% sure we will be fine.

▲ks2048 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sometimes self-interest leads to cooperation.

▲Vaslo a minute ago | parent [-]

I agree with you.

▲khalic 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No you will kidnap people, have them killed, silenced, accounts freeze, etc. It's not merely "exercising influence", it's coercion. It's exactly the case here, it's the US's prerogative not to follow the ICCs judgements, it's none of your fkn business what laws other countries have. If a US citizen is in another territory, it's that territory's law that count.

Your government also routinely ignores its own laws and judgements.

Hypocrisy at all the levels, and lying to try to still have the moral high ground.

▲tchalla an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I wish more people understand this very clearly instead of hiding behind "democratic values" and other moral lectures.

▲mda an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Typical American hubris.

▲dudefeliciano 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

doing a pretty shit job at that too tbh

▲Vaslo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

▲enaaem an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The US is a colony of Israel.