| ▲ | ks2048 2 hours ago |
| > It feels like something written by someone who’s on psychedelics. So much unclear and doesn’t make sense. Lots of name dropping of previous work without discussing why it can be used despite impossibility results > Basically the paper is so horribly written that it’s impossible to read it without AI help That's interesting and haven't seen this in all the coverage of this event. It sounds horrible to wade through - like trying to understand someone else's messy code that still produces the correct output. |
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| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Math proofs need to produce the correct output correctly, which is not quite the same thing. This looks like an AI IPO PR powerplay, because at this point the proofs haven't been checked and it may not be possible for a human to check them - because proofs should be clear, not horribly written and noisy. The noise is suspicious because it's the difference between brute forcing and cognition. A human proof won't just be logically correct, it will be cognitively distilled and coherent. It may still take years to understand it, but the logical flow will be straightforward, not obfuscated. You want the path through the maze to be as short as possible and the map to be as clear as possible. This sounds like the opposite. There may be a genuine path through the maze, but if it's too convoluted and takes too long it will be impossible to confirm. I think the next step is to demand that proofs either be human-scale or they prove that a human-scale proof is impossible and the machine proof is as good as it gets. I suspect that's possible without tripping over the halting problem. (But I can't prove it.) |
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| ▲ | eadler an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | That reminds me of this paper: Chow, T. Y. (2008). A beginner’s guide to forcing (arXiv:0712.1320). arXiv. https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.0712.1320 > “All mathematicians are familiar with the concept of an open research problem. I propose the less familiar concept of an open exposition problem. Solving an open exposition problem means explaining a mathematical subject in a way that renders it totally perspicuous. Every step should be motivated and clear; ideally, students should feel that they could have arrived at the results themselves. The proofs should be “natural” in Donald Newman’s sense [13]: > This term . . . is introduced to mean not having any ad hoc constructions or brilliancies. A “natural” proof, then, is one which proves itself, one available to the “common mathematician in the streets.”” | |
| ▲ | FloorEgg an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If intelligence is compression, and these models are a different form of lesser intelligence than human, but being scaled up to brute force problems, then it makes sense the artifacts that produce (the proofs) would have worse compression than a human proof would. In other domains I have seen first hand overwhelming evidence of how things that cause the AI to make mistakes also cause humans to make the same mistakes. I wonder if the proofs being produced that are hard for humans to interpret are also hard for other LLMs to interpret. In other words, I wonder if humans are still much better at compressing understanding into proofs than the best LLMs, and what it will take for LLMs to exceed them. It kind of an explicit example of how the LLMs can be materially less intelligent than people, but still be more productive through scaling, and yet they also can't replace people because they are a categorically different kind of intelligence. It's like all the AI debates compressed into one example showing countwr-intuitive answers. | | |
| ▲ | esafak 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | This is just the first cut. I have no doubt that they will polish their proofs over time. | |
| ▲ | slopinthebag 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | idk if i'd even say they're "lesser", just very different. so they look like gods/babies depending on what they're doing because we anthropomorphise them. |
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| ▲ | Octoth0rpe an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > A human proof won't just be logically correct, it will be cognitively distilled and coherent. It may still take years to understand it, but the logical flow will be straightforward, not obfuscated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-universal_Teichmüller_th... seems like a counterpoint, but IANAM. (I am likely cherrypicking the far end of the bell curve re: straightforward here) | |
| ▲ | sebzim4500 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Surely by the time of the IPO we will know whether the main results are correct, if only because a different AI will have produced a lean proof or found a logical flaw (the second case would be hard to verify but probably not impossible). Also from what I can tell from the few fields I understand, the proofs aren't that long or complicated they are just terribly written. | | |
| ▲ | curt15 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Why should that make material difference to the IPO? What is the economic value of those results? The entire US federal budget for math research is something like $100M annually. And mathematicians in other countries are hardly making bank either. How does one reconcile how the market has historically valued mathematics with the cash-strapped frontier labs ploughing so much money into that enterprise? | | |
| ▲ | runarberg 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The market works in mysterious ways. What companies do for marketing is often irrational, what companies do to attract investors is likewise often irrational, and why investors invest in companies is also often irrational. Why should that make a material difference to the IPO? Because of the vibes, and investors are indeed all about the vibes. |
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| ▲ | ComplexSystems an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I think the next step is to demand that proofs either be human-scale or they prove that a human-scale proof is impossible and the machine proof is as good as it gets. Who do we demand this from? The AI companies? Or the mathematicians who are worried they will have nothing left to do? | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | From the entity that is producing these proofs, obviously. As the old saying: great claims require great evidence. | | |
| ▲ | esafak 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Ask away. They've dropped the mic, as far as they're concerned; they're not going to worry about what you do with it, or if you don't understand it. | | |
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| ▲ | pizza234 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The post says there's a Lean certificate for this and other proofs ("some [...] not all of them"). > This looks like an AI IPO PR powerplay, Interestingly, the post has actually also an argument for this: > Experience has shown that, even now, there will still be people explaining in patronizing tones why none of this is real and none of it counts. If such people were capable of being impressed by anything that happens in the empirical world, of updating on anything, they would’ve already been impressed and already updated several years ago, long before things had reached the point of an actual Mathocalypse. > So, they’ll say, maybe the alleged solutions are not solutions at all, but just “AI slop.” | | |
| ▲ | smcg an hour ago | parent [-] | | It's on OpenAI and Anthropic to prove that they obtained these results legitimately and credited all researchers who deserve credit. They do not get the benefit of the doubt. | | |
| ▲ | Kotlopou an hour ago | parent [-] | | But if you think they got them illegitimately, then how did they get them? And why are mathematicians reacting to this as a sudden explosion of new results that have resisted sustained effort? Where is the sudden productivity rise coming from? |
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| ▲ | caaqil an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | We should consider the possibility that at some abstraction levels, we can safely stop chasing "clarity" or "coherence" which is circularly defined in such a way that it's capped by human processing power. Developers and people in CS in general seem to have gotten used to the idea that most productive SWEs don't need to exactly know how to produce assembly or trace every branch prediction or even most of the optimization the CPU (or even their compiler) is running. Mathematicians will get there. | | |
| ▲ | jltsiren 25 minutes ago | parent [-] | | CS got that idea from mathematics. Theorems (with the definitions required to state them) are supposed to be self-contained units. Once the general consensus is that a theorem has been proven correct, people can use it without understanding the proof. Of course, people still want to understand how things work, and it often makes sense to understand them a couple of layers below the one you usually work at. But at some point, you should stop distracting yourself with irrelevant details and focus on your actual work. |
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| ▲ | ssfdg an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This proof dump reminds me of the glut of low-quality drive-by PRs overwhelming open-source repos. |
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| ▲ | piker 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It also aligns with the fear that these proofs present a risk to the ecosystem by out-competing attempts at more human-readable proofs. Perhaps though we end up with more math influencers who edit and annotate these proofs to bring them back to us. |
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| ▲ | whatshisface an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The ecosystem is (ahem) gated by hiring committees. There is no risk of AI replacement from the inside. "Replacement" is not even a possible movement. The funding for mathematics worldwide comes mostly from endowments, which are investment pools. | |
| ▲ | bobajeff 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think that's ultimately a good thing. As proofs weren't supposed to be the point as stated by William Thurston long ago. Maybe now the focus can be more on better explanations and creating tools for growing understanding and intuition. | | |
| ▲ | cowlevel an hour ago | parent [-] | | Good explanations should take the form of human-understandable proofs. | | |
| ▲ | btilly an hour ago | parent [-] | | Define "human understandable". It's worthy of note that most humans, do not find most mathematicians understandable. As is frequently demonstrated in Calculus classes. Therefore it is arguable that even human produced results are not generally human understandable. |
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| ▲ | rrr_oh_man 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Vibe mathing |
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| ▲ | jltsiren an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Isn't that just the default experience with AI these days? In small enough scale, AI models can express their ideas clearly. But the larger and more complex the ideas are, the less suitable the outputs are for human consumption. I guess AI models think too different from humans, and nobody has trained them to communicate complex ideas in the way human experts in that particular topic expect. |
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| ▲ | spelunker an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I see many parallels to genAI-assisted code development. Not surprising I think. |
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| ▲ | acedTrex 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Basically the paper is so horribly written that it’s impossible to read it without AI help This basically describes every single PR at work for the past year. Diffs of 10k+ paragraphs of comments saying nothing. Just rubber stamp and move on, nothing else you can do. |
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| ▲ | m3kw9 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| why not get Astra to make it make sense? |
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| ▲ | aaroninsf 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Serious question: Why would anyone believe this (also) is not simply example N+1 of this is the worst it will ever be, as opposed to recognizing this as what will almost certainly prove to be an awkward moment, soon to be replaced by another order of magnitude of cleaner, clearer, more intelligible, etc.? Ximm's Law: every critique of AI assumes to some degree that contemporary implementations will not, or cannot, be improved upon. |
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| ▲ | devin 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Devin's Law: every defense of AI which rests on "it will get better, trust me" is in many ways indistinguishable from 2010s crypto hype or "level 5 self driving is right around the corner" | | |
| ▲ | usrnm an hour ago | parent [-] | | 1) Predicting the future is hard, but so far everyone who was saying that it would get better turned out to be right. It is getting better
2) Waymo exists | | |
| ▲ | devin 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | 3) That doesn't mean flying cars will within your lifetime I don't think anyone is saying it can't or won't get better, but the question is how much better, on what timescale, and are there fundamental parts of the problem which will remain extraordinarily difficult to improve? The comment I was responding to suggested a guarantee of an "order of magnitude" jump right around the corner. There is no guarantee of this, and if you view doomers as fools for having doubts, then we ought to look upon the folks who are sure of this sort of progress in the same way. | | |
| ▲ | kulahan 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Your original comment was about self-driving cars, not flying ones. If you wanted unattainable goalposts you should’ve started with that, not ended with it. | | |
| ▲ | devin 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Waymo does not claim level 5 self-driving, and you don't have a level 4 in your driveway, so I don't think my original claim is unfair anyhow. |
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| ▲ | Kotlopou an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | In that case, one would expect to see some progress in this direction, but AFAICT that hasn't shown up yet? If anything, it's getting worse, though that could just be the increasing scale and decreasing cleanup efforts. Already the unit distance proof was substantially human-edited (per Thomas Bloom). Then with the ten problems from Astra you started getting the citation issues. Then Navier-Stokes was a rushed 160 pages with barely any citations, and some of the related papers were called (by their "authors") the ugliest mess they've ever seen. And now here we are. At least it seems that mathematical ability and communication with a mathematical audience are independent skills, and progress in the first does not imply the second. This doesn't surprise me much, given two analogies: 1) many smart people are nonetheless horrible lecturers. (You can't quite get the opposite extreme, since to explain math well you have to be able to do it.) 2) AI writing in general hasn't improved. The models have annoying verbal tics ("honestly") and have no sense of which part of what they say is obvious and which is relevant. | | |
| ▲ | auggierose an hour ago | parent [-] | | You can get the opposite extreme quite often as well, I'd think. How many really good lecturers have never proven a new important result? | | |
| ▲ | Kotlopou 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I'm thinking of somebody like Grant Sanderson (3blue1brown), doing pure exposition extremely well. For that you at least need to be able to work through examples, or to present why an intuitive approach might fail, and these things can be little theorems themselves. It doesn't have to be publishable in the current culture of novel results, but you do need a lot of competence with the tools. |
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