| ▲ | xx_ns 5 hours ago |
| It's exciting to see JXL support being re-added in Chrome after being removed a while ago and them seemingly not being interested in supporting it [1]. I think JXL is a cool image format, but was being held back by the most popular browser not supporting it, limiting its use (in the web especially) by a lot. [1]: https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40270698 |
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| ▲ | rdsubhas 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Yes I think the major story here is Google removing and then re-adding it back. Big companies have big egos, so this is quite a miracle. I have a feeling now JXL is here to stay, finally. |
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| ▲ | innocent_name 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Wasn't it due to poor security? libjxl had notorious bugs that would've on par with webp exploit, if present in browser: https://security.snyk.io/vuln/?search=libjxl I remember Project Zero cautioning Google's browser team against adding insecure decoders/encoders. |
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| ▲ | erk__ 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No, that was not part of the reason the Google Chrome team gave: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/WjCKc... | | |
| ▲ | PaulHoule 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are very interesting values here. Somebody could think of the web as primarily a platform for consumption, in which case it is OK for it to support a limited number of formats, actually desirable because it reduces the attack area. Another is that the web is connected to general purpose computing in which that case the web browser competes with GUI shells (e.g. explorer, finder) and should be able to support every image format that is commonly used on the platform. Back in the 1990s most platform supported a lot of file formats that weren't JPEG or GIF but browsers didn't support them and only a small set of formats have been added since then. A long time ago I ran some sites that hosted large image collections and I struggled with costs so I did a lot of thinking about how to optimize storage and transfer. I came to the conclusion about 5 years ago that WebP is consistently a win over Jpeg, but I've never been a fan of AVIF. Yeah, it does great for big blog hero images that people don't look at closely, but it makes my mirrorless shots look like they were shot on a cheap Android. Yeah, I've seen that picture of the F1 car and it is superficially impressive but if you look closely at the highlights you can see that it erased the real highlights and replaced them with something plausible but... different. | | |
| ▲ | asadotzler an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | We had plug-ins to support them all. | | |
| ▲ | mort96 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | And that was a pretty bad solution. Nobody wants to see "this web page doesn't display correctly because you're missing the bla bla plug-in". |
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| ▲ | dist-epoch an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Interesting. I'm on the other side, I hate webp because if I download such an image a lot of apps don't support it. So typically I need to screenshot it instead to get a usable jpg/png. Now one more format to hate. I would say webp/jxl/avif is anti-general compute, since they require very recent software. | | |
| ▲ | mort96 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Some people get mad at this reason for hating WebP, but it's so true. The main way in which most people's lives are affected by WebP is that images they download from the web no longer work. |
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| ▲ | j16sdiz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | that's what firefox said, not chrome | |
| ▲ | dncornholio 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Probably why Google implemented their own decoder in Rust https://developer.chrome.com/blog/jpeg-xl-in-chrome#safety_f... | | |
| ▲ | mrandish 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Thanks for pointing that out. The stated reasoning for not supporting JXL is understandable, though quite vague. It feels like the sort of general trade-offs you could cite about not supporting any codec. In my experience in large companies, such 'tough choices' on features that would be "nice to have, but doesn't make the priority cut" are usually driven by demand from internal stakeholders or corp strategy not exceeding budget/head count constraints. While I'm happy for the reversal, it would be helpful to have a corresponding explanation addressing what changed leading to this reversal just two years later (assuming the decision to support was made 9-12 mos ago). | |
| ▲ | spider-mario 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | “Their own” is a bit misleading. It’s largely a subset of the people who implemented libjxl in the first place, but this time in Rust. | | |
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| ▲ | 2OEH8eoCRo0 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why do browsers need to support every media format? Why can't it be shipped as a shared library for the whole system to use? |
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| ▲ | groundzeros2015 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Because browsers want to provide a consistent platform and can’t rely on OS vendors to do it in the way they need and prioritize their interests. | |
| ▲ | EvanAnderson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Why can't it be shipped as a shared library for the whole system to use? Flashbacks to DataTypes on the Amiga: https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Datatypes_Library | | |
| ▲ | Findecanor an hour ago | parent [-] | | My favourite tidbit about the Amiga is that it was the first platform that got PNG support in all its web browsers: you just had to install the png.datatype. |
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| ▲ | burnte an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This way browser vendors control what their app supports, and won't have something break because a user doesn't have a library. | |
| ▲ | alwillis 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Why can't it be shipped as a shared library for the whole system to use? That's how it works on macOS; the bundled apps (Preview, Photos, etc.) gained support for JPEG XL. | |
| ▲ | lxgr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Given that there are more operating systems than browser engines these days, I'm not sure this would be an unequivocal win. | | |
| ▲ | arghwhat an hour ago | parent [-] | | Eh. WebKit, Blink, Gecko being the big ones, supporting Windows, Linux (and alikes — maybe one would consider Android separate in this context) and Darwin (in this context iOS/macOS is the same). Mostly 1:1. The thing is that it's still just a library, it just happened to be pre-installed. CGImage is just a helper in the Core Graphics library, not some magical "native"/"core" functionality in the OS that would be different than any other library with the same features. An equivalent library for Linux (glycin for example), or per-format libraries like jxl-rs, are not "included in the OS", and tend to be the very same libraries one would use for Windows. If that does the trick on most platforms, then why have the maintenance burden of doing something different on macOS if all it does is save a few bytes on disk? From Google's perspective, they would likely not want Chrome for macOS to gain support for jxl as the sole platform anyway, even if they are using CGImage and could decode it that way... | | |
| ▲ | lxgr 33 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I'd definitely consider Android separate from Linux, yes. Their multimedia subsystems are completely different. The same applies to tons of embedded Linux platforms running an embedded Chromium or WebKit. Browsers have also largely switched to handling most aspects of TLS and certificates themselves, despite there being OS libraries for those as well; the same applies to HTTP. |
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| ▲ | code_duck 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Google seems to prefer reimplementing every portion of an OS possible in Chrome. | | |
| ▲ | DC-3 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | If you want things to work every single time on a billion different devices this is how you do it. | | |
| ▲ | titzer 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, and then 100 different apps can repackage the browser engine as an Electron app, each weigh 300+mb. I saw this recently with Balena etcher. It's a firmware flashing app with about 10 buttons total. It's over 400mb because it's written in node and has an electron GUI. Good jerb. | | |
| ▲ | encom an hour ago | parent [-] | | When your flashing app starts getting bigger than the operating systems it's writing, you should start asking yourself some questions. ~$ du -h $(which dd)
76K /usr/bin/dd
Etcher truly is the clowniest Electron app of them all. | | |
| ▲ | mort96 34 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Better and similar size: $ du -h $(which pv)
116K /usr/bin/pv
pv has a progress bar and nicer syntax. Next time you need to write an image, try: sudo pv -Yo /dev/blah /path/to/your/image.img
The -Y makes it sync after each write so that the progress bar represents actual progress instead of just how fast you can copy to kernel write buffers.My life improved measurably after I contributed that '-o' flag to pv and it then made its way into all my systems through regular OS updates :) | |
| ▲ | titzer 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Long live dd! Except every time I use it I am terrified I'll blow out the brains of the wrong device :/ Another example clown app: the MacOS downloads of TuxGuitar, a Java app, used to just ship as a zip with a big jar in it. Now it ships an entire Java Runtime environment specific to your processor architecture. It's 480MB. Derp. |
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| ▲ | looperhacks 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But it is a shared library? It's used in both Chrome and Firefox. | | | |
| ▲ | echelon 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Such an important piece of software does not want to subject itself to the packaging and support woes of shared libraries. There are security issues, maintainability issues, and much more headache by going with that approach. Static linking is one and done, headache gone. People have large drives these days, so it's not a problem. There are areas where the browser will dynamically link, but those are more OS-related than image and file format codecs. |
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| ▲ | est 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > removed a while ago and them seemingly not being interested in supporting it Removed because no one from Google benifits from supporting it then. Re-added because someone could get a promotion by supporting it now. |
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| ▲ | andruby 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > nobody benifits from supporting it Do you mean the users of the browsers not benefitting, or specific Google employees/stakeholders? | | |
| ▲ | thesuitonym 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What a silly question, Google has never cared about users. | |
| ▲ | est 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, I meant Google employees/stakeholders. They always abandon shit like this. | | |
| ▲ | alwillis 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | There were obviously some internal politics going on—Google joined the Alliance for Open Media, a consortium of the who's who of the media/tech industry: Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Netflix, Nvidia… the list goes on. They supported AVIF as the next generation image format. Google apparently wanted to be one of the "cool kids" supporting AVIF. When they removed the JPEG XL code from Chrome, they created the excuse that there was little demand for it, along with some other disingenuous talking points that didn't quite make sense. Ironically the project that ended up becoming JPEG XL was started by Google employees in Switzerland. Anyway, I’m glad Google is supporting JPEG XL now. I wanted to use JPEG XL files for a project I started a month ago, but it was a non-starter with global usage under 20% at the time. |
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| ▲ | crote 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Removed because having yet another giant C codec was a huge risk, re-added because the PDF Association chose JXL as their next image format so anyone rendering PDFs (including browsers) is now required to have it. | | |
| ▲ | nananana9 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | "Required" is a strong word. More than enough people use Chrome as a PDF viewer that if Google decided to not support JXL, you'd see ~0 PDFs with it. Another giant codec is only a huge risk if you run the decoder in the renderer process, which they say in the linked thread they do, but I don't see a sane reason why. I'm sure if they asked the secret Gemini 4.0 AGI to use their existing very good sandbox to throw all the decoders in their own process and only share the image buffers, it could do it in a few hours. | |
| ▲ | est 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Removed because having yet another giant C codec was a huge risk Removed because trillion dollar advertising company don't bother, which also happens to be the browser vendor monopoly. How many man-hour effort does it take to create jxl-rs ? https://github.com/libjxl/jxl-rs/graphs/contributors | | |
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