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▲ steinvakt2 8 hours ago

I'm biased (I'm European), but I'd much rather be middle class in Europe than in USA.

▲WarmWash 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The US is biased to favor the top half of society. Hence why there is a lot of vocal poorer people and a lot of low profile wealthier people (I'm not including the 1% or even the 5% in this).

When you are in the 75%ish of the US, it's very easy to make a case that life in the US is better. But we don't really talk about that because it's pretty taboo when poorer people are struggling much more than they would in Europe.

▲jandrewrogers 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Almost half of US households earn $100k+ now. The median American is affluent by European standards. The "middle class" of Europe and America has become less comparable over time because median incomes have significantly diverged. You see it in many aspects of lifestyle and the kinds of things they can afford to buy.

20 years ago this was not the case. The minimum wage in some parts of the US is now higher than the average wage in most of Europe.

The US has a population that will always struggle to survive without government assistance. Per multiple US statistical agencies that is about 10-15% of households.

▲IlikeMadison 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>The minimum wage in some parts of the US is now higher than the average wage in most of Europe.

definitely not in Western Europe.

▲ragall 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not 75%, more like 95%. Only about the top 5% have a chance of a better life than the equivalent in Europe.

▲will4274 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Poor people in America (25th percentile) have more money that middle class people (50th percentile) in Europe. This wasn't true 20 years ago.

▲preg_match 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Money is one thing, quality of life is another. Also money alone isn’t even a fair comparison because stuff costs different amounts across countries.

▲cindyllm 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

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▲broptimist 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is untrue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...

Median wealth per adult has the USA at #28, below Italy, Spain, Slovenia, and Portugal.

▲will4274 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Income is the relevant metric. Most poor people (worldwide) have negligible savings.

USA 25th percentile 28k to 30k EU-27 50th percentile 24k to 26k.

▲jbs789 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This comment contradicts your earlier comment though, where you mentioned “poor people have”, a clear reference to wealth rather than earnings.

▲satvikpendem 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In the US people don't say "has money" as meaning net worth, they are generally talking about spendable money ie a paycheck unless you're talking about someone super rich who "has money" or "comes from money."

▲will4274 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> a clear reference to wealth rather than earnings.

No, sorry, it isn't. People commonly use the phrase "has money" to refer to income in American English.

▲broptimist 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is moving the goalposts. You said "have more money than."

▲will4274 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes. Spendable money. Income. The common meaning of the phrase among non-rich people.

▲eloisant 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You have to look at purchasing power parity.

A bigger salary is no good if you have nothing left after paying housing, groceries, bills, education, healthcare...

▲femtozer 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

more money but what about access to healthcare, education, vacation?

▲WarmWash 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's a shrinking issue once you get out of the bottom ~50%, and a non-issue once you get above ~75%.

Again, the deal with the US is that the rich live better and the poor live worse. Or put another way; people who make money get to keep more, and people who don't make money are given less.

Because there are so many more people who have money, and because those people like living comfortably, available healthcare and education is world class. Make sure not to read that as "All healthcare and education", it's "available healthcare and education".

Generally people who are earning a lot don't care as much about vacation, but every white collar job will generally give at least a standard 15 days off and 10 holidays. Ironically as you move up you are generally given more vacation while actually using less.

▲whatsThisBtn4 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think we are seeing the decline of even this. The European debt crisis, the United States security umbrella being disinterested in Europe, austerity, increasing retirement age, an inability to defend Ukraine without the United States. The running gag they don't have AC...

Even poor populations worldwide have access to the 3 things you described, but the quality is lower.

European decline has been mentioned since the 1930s.

▲jandrewrogers 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Poor people in the US have fully subsidized healthcare and education.

Americans don't have vacation in the same way Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage. Even the most left-leaning States in the US have not written it into law because it is effectively addressed by custom. Americans are sufficiently happy with it that vacation isn't a political topic.

▲jittles 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And yet the poorest 25th percentile of Americans are not enjoying a better quality of life than the European middle class. If those numbers are accurate, all they tell us is that personal wealth is an even worse indicator of having a life worth living than we would have thought 20 years ago.

▲IlikeMadison 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Imagine being so bitter you are lying this much. Wow.

▲Jgrubb 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm biased as well, being American. I think I'd much rather be middle class in Europe than the USA as well. Middle class in the US is a constant feeling of the ladder dissolving just beneath you.

▲whatsThisBtn4 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Get off Facebook and get on Wikipedia.

Or go visit there.

Even in rich cities, it felt like I was in the lower middle class area in my suburban area.

▲Jgrubb an hour ago | parent [-]

I haven't been on Facebook in 15 years. I spend every night on Wikipedia, following random links. I worked for a Parisian company for a decade and have been around western EU more than most Americans.

Probably dial back your assumptions a little bit. I've earned my opinions just as much as you have.

▲will4274 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you're middle class in America and you'd like to be middle class in Europe, you can just do that.

▲jbs789 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I have to imagine in several years when you have a wife/husband and kids and ageing parents your views will change.

▲will4274 6 hours ago | parent [-]

The point is about economic mobility - of course, people get tied down as they get older.

Middle class people from wealthy nations who move to poor countries are relatively rich by the standards of their new country. Middle class people from poor countries who move to rich countries are relatively poor by the standards of their new country.

▲vouwfietsman 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Depends. If you are middle class in US with little savings, moving to Europe will probably make your life worse as relative wages are lower for many professions (e.g software eng).

If you are middle class in EU and have little savings, moving to US will do the opposite and you would be better off.

Your comparison holds for the inverse: getting most of your quality of life from static wealth.

▲yladiz 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

Define worse/better.

▲newswasboring 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

People always make this case, if you're not satisfied then move. As someone who has changed countries twice and continents once, I can attest it's not an easy or convenient thing to do. Money or lifestyle is one thing, but you're also leaving behind family and culture. Statements like these are so dismissive to that struggle that it's almost offensive to me.

▲Jgrubb an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I have no idea why you're being downvoted, because you're absolutely right. I have circumstances that make moving abroad something like a nuclear option. I could take my job with me, but that's the least of it.

▲satvikpendem 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No one said it was easy, just that it's possible, saying this as someone who's also moved continents.

▲will4274 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The point is that middle class Americans can become middle class Europeans, but middle class Europeans can't become middle class Americans, because they can't afford it.

I didn't say it'd be easy. I'm just pointing out that only one of the two groups being discussed has a real choice in the matter.

▲newswasboring 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That is the entire point I'm trying to make. You can win the argument by being pedantic about the precise thing you were saying, or we can recognize the broader implication of what you are suggesting people to do. Only economically viable means nothing when it comes to life decisions.

▲eloisant 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think you realize the situation of the US middle class.

High education costs. High healthcare costs. One serious disease or accident can bankrupt you. Buying a house usually means a 30 years loans at 7% so after 10 years you still have 85% of capital left to pay off.

Salaries are higher but everything is more expensive, so in purchasing power parity it's basically the same.

▲steinvakt2 an hour ago | parent [-]

Yes, I wrote that I prefer Europe

▲will4274 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd much rather the people of every continent have the combined technology advancements of three major powers vs two.

▲formvoltron 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you realize the variety of breakfast cereals you are giving up?

▲oblio 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Also the range of things with added sugar. I never imagined sauerkraut (you know, sour cabbage) could have sugar added to it.

▲fleroviumna 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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