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▲ jey 8 hours ago

Seems wild that they can code and deploy an update of a critical-seeming component in the field like that. I thought such a firmware update would need extensive QA in the lab, along with root causing why this bug slipped through their processes anyway.

But maybe that's the difference between shipping a controller for F1 versus shipping one for an industrial or consumer product? shrug.

▲ricardobayes 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It was very unlikely there was actual coding involved, as even the C++ build and test toolchain would run for ages (in my automotive days it would run for 45 minutes and that was just build, link and static analysis). In this case it's probably just a config change.

▲alentred 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This reminds me of a story how Deep Space 1 was fixed from 100 million miles-away. [1]

[1] https://gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-t... (the last paragraph, search for "remote debugging" in the page)

▲atmosx 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Seems wild that they can code and deploy an update of a critical-seeming component in the field like that. I thought such a firmware update would need extensive QA in the lab, along with root causing why this bug slipped through their processes anyway.

These cars are in a perpetual Q&A state, they are getting modified between races. That's true for the "big teams", small teams don't have the resources, they're just "happy to be there". That's why it's possible to see stories like Brawn GP[^1]. That's what makes the sport fascinating, because the overtakes are not as much as one would hope for a ~2-3 hours race. But every little thing counts. In the last race 1st and 2nd had ~103ms diff or something like that for example, which is something that didn't happen for 15-20 years (maybe more).

[^1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd3miTpvUmI

▲OtherShrezzing 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> That's true for the "big teams", small teams don't have the resources, they're just "happy to be there".

This isn't really the case anymore. There's a budget cap, and all of the teams are financially sound most of the time. While the poorer teams might bring fewer upgrades in a year, they still bring upgrades all year long, and R&D is a continuous process in every F1 factory these days. Smaller teams also get additional R&D, compute, and testing time compared to the big teams.

▲pmontra 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Actually there is a budget cap so small teams have the same resources of big teams. However big teams have an advantage. They assembled a better team and a better network. This is from the team principal of Williams, one of the teams at the bottom of the rankings https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/cost-cap-creating-two-tie...

▲trentor 5 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It was probably just a json with settings.

▲LeoPanthera 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It seems they simply disabled a bunch of power limits. Probably just settings, rather than an actual code update.

▲avs733 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This is the most likely…they just flipped a setting flag that was causing an unintended conflict.

▲tiffanyh 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

F1 are effectively prototype cars.

Every GP is a slightly different car running bleeding edge tech and code.

▲dylan604 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm wondering how good the simulators are. At the start of the season, they were still learning the systems trying to figure out why they were losing power in the straights. So depending on the driver, issues may or may not become apparent. That's like trying to debug why an email can only be sent to a recipient less than 500 miles away.

▲degamad 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> trying to debug why an email can only be sent to a recipient less than 500 miles away.

Ah, a student of the old masters....

(For the uninitiated, or those who wish to relive the memory: https://www.ibiblio.org/harris/500milemail.html )

▲johnwalkr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The simulators have the ECU in the loop but of course most of the inputs are simulated and they come from models for car dynamics and all kinds of behavior that have a lot of correlations and assumptions built in. As in a flight sim, some of the models are empirical (more like curve-fitting than simulation of physics). Losing power in straights is something a team would be highly motivated to see predicted in the simulator as that’s within normal conditions. But it’s not surprising the simulator can’t predict some edge cases, you’d need to get a lot of things right in the modeling and think of weird inputs.

What they probably could do yesterday, on top of checking a ton of telemetry, is understand which inputs were weird and put those into a simulator and get some hints for the FIA to work with. If you’re not aware, the FIA provides the ECU to all teams so that the telemetry used to check compliances and power modes are fair across all teams, and things like traction control are not there. This is why the FIA had to provide the firmware update.

▲raverbashing 5 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think simulations play more into the strategy than on the power curves of the cars (though they probably calibrate that on pre-season training)

▲rossriley 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Anthony Davidson who is the Mercedes test driver said that the teams can simulate these scenarios and it seemed that the Mercedes cars were not affected so it seems that other teams hadn't done similar testing in various scenarios.

▲_thisdot 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Piastri and Norris, both on Mercedes engines, seem to have been affected. Not to mention the start of this season where McLaren allegedly forgot to upgrade the firmware on their Mercedes engines and couldn't run more than a few laps for two races.

▲rossriley 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

I imagine this is handled at a team level though, Red Bull were giving Max instructions over the radio to keep the revs at a certain level. Presumably if the team had simulated these conditions they'd have discovered the potential problem and then come up with a process to mitigate it.

▲monkeydust 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Right. There's plenty of software simulators in racing so was surprised their testing harness doesn't use one.

▲jcomp 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interesting that both Mercedes also had great starts relative to the Red Bull that was affected, wonder if that’s somehow related

▲altmanaltman 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

One of the mercedes literally broke down and did not finish the race. They might not have faced the issue during the first time they went out in that race but Merc reliablity has been very shaky. And ofc Ant will talk only good things about Mercedes. But this is not the type of things they use the driver simulator for, it is to help the drivers train. These types of issues don't make sense to spend simulator time on with the driver in it

▲dylan604 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Seems a lot better place to learn than in the middle of the race and earning $0 for the race. Isn't that the entire point of a simulator to learn things that are too expensive to learn in the real world?

▲michaelt 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's more than one type of simulator, and F1 has certain 'spending caps', after a spending war bankrupted bunch of teams.

Wind tunnel time and aerodynamics simulator time are included in the cost cap, as are car parts and most staff (but not driver salaries, travel or marketing)

Drivers can spend all the time they want in standard consumer sim racing rigs, practising the tracks. But when it's the type of extra-high-fidelity simulator that lets you make the car better - that's subject to the cost cap.

▲TeMPOraL 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> but not driver salaries, travel or marketing

I assume someone is already offering an extremely high-fidelity CFD simulator (or a wind tunnel) to help companies shoot awesome videos of their cars, for purposes of including them in TV spots, of course.

▲rurban 3 hours ago | parent [-]

CFD simulations came at around 2010. Redbull had the best of them, that's why they took over from Mercedes-McLaren those years.

I worked on engine and powertrain simulations, and my compiler was used for vehicle and driver simulations. This was built for Honda, but Honda left, bought by Mercedes, and won them several championships.

▲altmanaltman 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Seems a lot better place to learn than in the middle of the race and earning $0 for the race.

That's... not how it works at all, though. There are no prizes for individual races and the championship money is also pennies to the teams.

Mercedes's Kimi Antonelli is going to win the WDC anyway for sure at this point, given the points difference.

> Isn't that the entire point of a simulator to learn things that are too expensive to learn in the real world?

You're right but this is not those expensive things. Track time is extremely limited, so the primary role of the sim is to develop the car and how it feels to the drivers, mainly so the setup feels perfect to them.

System-level bugs etc must have their own testing but sim is mainly for driver-engineer testing. Many drivers also don't like using the sim at all like Hamilton.

▲rapidfl 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It was probably just "config" changes or changing some hard-coded constants. So relatively straightforward.

▲chrisandchris 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> just

Sometimes we bring down whole services with "just" config (looking at you, DNS).

▲whizzter an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Disabling code is usually safer than enabling, seems they were able to pinpoint this rather quickly.

▲DrewADesign 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have no idea if modern-day SV’s “tests pass… idfk, it’s a web app… LGTM I guess” coding ethos was the cause of this particular bug. However, it’s a great, relatively benign demonstration of why it has absolutely zero fucking place controlling extremely dangerous hardware shooting a human around a race track surrounded by people.

▲TeMPOraL 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Except here, where it's kind of the point of the sport in the first place?

▲ddalex 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They rolled out a prepared safe defaults version with lots of checks, including the crashing one, removed.

▲mvlipwig 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think those engineers had some memories of their FSAE / FSUK days during that patch.

▲Jean-Papoulos 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They didn't, it just needed a restart. From the first reports the first car's software genuinely glitched out because of the new track/rain/etc and had to be restarted, the other cars got anti-traction control triggered because going this slow for this long unspools the turbo, which got so bad the detection software made a false positive.

▲manarth 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

there's no traction control or other driver-assistance aids (ABS etc) in f1 cars

▲fragmede 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That's what the rules say, anyway. Cheating is part of the game, and @ActuallyVen goes into some of the ways teams have played with the rules.

https://youtube.com/@actuallyven

▲gambiting 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean, the article literally says a firmware update was deployed mid race to remove power limits, is the article wrong?

▲mjpa86 an hour ago | parent [-]

Teams confirmed it was a firmware update on the broadcast. Article is correct.

▲ 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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