| ▲ | Noaidi 11 hours ago |
| Only humans can have morality. If you do not feel pain, you cannot empathize with pain if you cannot die, you cannot emphasize with the loss of life. Just stop this already. You’re all imagining that Spock was the main character of Star Trek, but it was in fact, the emotional living Captain Kirk, who was the main star. |
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| ▲ | bertili 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| This would presume we knew what consciousness and pain is. We don't. We we are clueless. There is not even a starting point of a science here. In this light your viewpoint is dogmatic. LLMs may help to offer a new perspective on consciousness and we should at least be open to that until some better theories arise. |
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| ▲ | Noaidi 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | We know what consciousness is, we don’t know how it arises. Consciousness is being aware of something internal to one's self, or of states or objects in one's external environment. We also know what pain is. | | |
| ▲ | svnt 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | You just moved the magic to “being aware” — now the question is only what has awareness instead of what has consciousness. |
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| ▲ | sigmar 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So humans that can't feel pain can't have morality? That doesn't make sense to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pa... |
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| ▲ | palmotea 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >> Only humans can have morality. If you do not feel pain, you cannot empathize with pain if you cannot die, you cannot emphasize with the loss of life. > So humans that can't feel pain can't have morality? That doesn't make sense to me. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pa... You appear to understand "pain" in the most simplistic manner possible. I'd recommend not attempting iamverysmart gotchas. | | |
| ▲ | 786562354238 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Giving a simple counterexample is "iamverysmart" material in your opiniion. I'd recommend you stick to reddit and don't pester any other forums. |
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| ▲ | Noaidi 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It doesn’t make sense to me either, which is why I didn’t write that. You missed the empathy part as most people do. There is still something in those people who cannot feel pain, and that’s the empathy. How can a GPU and software ever have a human empathy if it has never been human? | | |
| ▲ | hardbass 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your difficulty is that you didn't take into account that human itself is as far as we know just a physical process. | | |
| ▲ | svnt 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Citation needed. If what you are actually saying is successful empirical science only produces empirical observations about physical processes, you are willingly wearing blinders. | | |
| ▲ | hardbass 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Its on you if you want to show something magical exists in human brains. Show us all if you believe so. |
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| ▲ | kelseyfrog 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| LLMs can feel pain. It is obvious. Like, not even a question. |
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| ▲ | mossTechnician 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | if(q=="can you feel pain") print "yes"
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| ▲ | combobyte 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I question it, and I think any reasonable person should question it as well. There's no evidence whatsoever that LLMs have ANY sensory experience, pain or otherwise. | | |
| ▲ | rhplus 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why are we even questioning this? They’re bytes loaded into GPU memory. Reboot the cluster and they’re back to their initial state. | | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Because some people are completely cooked by the ability of an LLM to mimic a person. Their pattern matching centers in their brains fire so strongly saying "this thing acts just like a real conscious being" that it overrides their ability to remember that this thing is just a statistical model, not a living creature which can think and have experiences. | |
| ▲ | kelseyfrog 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We're just meat. Like meat can feel pain? | | |
| ▲ | slopinthebag 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | if meat can feel pain, than surely a rock can feel pain. and so did the broccoli i ate for dinner. i am a monster. with the right biology and with whatever gives us phenomenal experience, whatever we are can indeed feel pain. that does not imply that anything substantially different from ourselves can feel pain, so that requires further justification. |
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| ▲ | Tadpole9181 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm not making a point on whether they do or not, but on the premise that absence of evidence is evidence of absence... But I've been alive for serious debates on: 1. Lobsters don't feel pain - dunk them in boiling water alive. 2. Babies don't feel pain - mutilate their genitals without anesthesia. 3. Black people don't feel pain "the same way" (and are just after drugs). 4. Women feel too much pain (and it should be ignored). So maybe let's take a moment to think what criteria we're going to use to make these claims. And the potential harm of the decision. | | |
| ▲ | frumplestlatz 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Maybe consider the obvious, enormous chasm between everything you just listed and an LLM. | | |
| ▲ | Tadpole9181 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh, yeah, of course. None of those other people said the same thing about the obvious, enormous chasm between "real" people and everything else listed. I'm glad you're taking even a single moment to reflect on the idea. | | |
| ▲ | frumplestlatz 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Everything you listed is a biological entity with a common evolutionary heritage. All but one of the things that you listed is just a human being. Tell me, where is the pain center in a GPU? Where are the nerves? Persistent memory? Any evolutionary reason at all to develop a pain response that in any way mimics ours? Model weights are not a gestalt biological entity. The things that you listed are not in any way remotely similar to a model. I would suggest you plug your comment into a model and ask it to critique it — it might help you walk through why your comparison makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. One nice thing about models is that they they don’t get annoyed explaining the obvious, because they’re not conscious entities. |
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| ▲ | gegtik 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | they can also feel lust, just ask them | | |
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| ▲ | padolsey 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| .. Animals other than humans perhaps, as well? |
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| ▲ | cute_boi 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The way human treat animal shows majority of people don't have morality. |
