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▲ srejk 8 hours ago

When you look at it holistically, von Neumann was more influential in science and mathematics in the 20th century than either Einstein or Planck. He wasn't as obvious a symbol of the scientific revolution, but his contributions to SO MANY THINGS at a fundamental level makes him stand out to me.

▲JoeAltmaier 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's odd that even today, different disciplines are still silo'd. My son started a research cross-database search engine because different disciplies use different terms for nearly identical concepts. Even within medicine it's silo'd.

Trouble with that startup was, the medical folks with money don't use computer tools. And the students in training have no money.

▲flipping_beacon 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's crazy that we talk about LLMs, AI/ML and what not but so many fields still don't use computation as much as we think they do simply because they cannot reliably keep up with the advancements happening almost everyday and people simply forgetting about backwards compatibility in their products

▲baruz 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A researcher submitted a paper to the medical journal _Diabetes care_ in the nineties that basically redescribed integral calculus as a novel finding. How’s that for a silo?

▲mmulqueen 4 hours ago | parent [-]

For anyone else who is curious:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai%27s_model

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8137688/

▲jablongo 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This is really funny. A less extreme example is how much domain-specific terminology in Reinforcement Learning and Control Theory/Model Predictive Control refer to the same underlying phenomena, but we must translate between the two. I understand there are many unique concepts as well, but it would be so helpful if the overlap here used the same terminology and notation.

▲Animats 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I still get IEEE Trans. on Control Theory, and it's all machine learning now. Except that the controls people are desperately trying to solidify the underpinnings of machine learning, so that control systems don't suddenly misbehave for some sets of inputs. Controls people want a guarantee that if it does something reasonable for inputs of 5.1 and 5.2, it doesn't do something completely unexpected for an input of 5.15.

▲donquichotte 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Reminds me of my favorite abstract, from John Doyle's paper "Guaranteed Margins for LQG Regulators".

https://improbable.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ThereAreNo...

▲sixtyj 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is your son’s search engine somewhere available, please?

▲JoeAltmaier 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It was something like 'Rugobi'. I'll ask him if there's a demo still up.

▲JoeAltmaier 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

HIs pubmed subscription expired.

▲api 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I always say knowledge is like a sweater. Pull a thread and the whole thing unravels. Everything is connected so if you start somewhere and never stop learning you'll end up in every discipline. There's also a good old Weezer song called Undone for this.

▲IAmBroom 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My minor required me to take Electricity & Magnetism from the physics department the same semester I had to take Fields & Waves from the electrical engineering department.

Yes, they were identical.

My crib note that I took into the later final exam was simply a conversion between terms in the two departments. Nothing else; I'd already crammed and aced the first exam.

▲ 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
▲nkozyra 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

He's definitely the one guy from the 20th century I can't really reconcile his capability and breadth, other than being an alien or a time traveller.

▲tomrod 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nash's game theory dissertation was something von Neumann considered obvious and not particularly noteworthy, if I remember my lore right. He was among the first game theorists, focusing more on collaborative games than pure strategic/competitive games.

Einstein built on the shoulders of Riemann, Gauss, and others when considering the universe might be non-Euclidean!

All brilliant people, many singular minds of great repute, yet, all improved by the rest.

▲dempedempe 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Saying that von Neumann was one of the first game theorists undersells it.

He wrote the original book on game theory! The Theory of Games and Economic Behavior with Oskar Morgenstern.

Relatedly, MAD was his conception as well.

▲mrandish 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

> He wrote the original book on game theory!

I always found it endearing that von Neumann loved playing poker with friends but was admittedly terrible at it, regularly losing money.

▲senderista 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I believe Nash himself didn't consider it particularly noteworthy either, and was far prouder of his work in pure math (like the Nash embedding theorem).

▲anthonypasq 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

another famous piece of Von Neumann lore is that he constantly advocated nuking the Soviets.

▲sillysaurusx 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I was wondering if someone would mention this.

It's interesting how much worse off the world would be if the smartest people were in charge of it.

What ultimately blocked his nuke proposals? (Why didn't anyone listen?) I'm curious about whatever failsafe that was.

▲estearum 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

1. Big assumption that the world would be worse off in that alternative future, no?

2. Probably what blocked his proposals is that most people are loath to murder millions of other people (especially if they have ~any other option, including "do nothing")

▲myth_drannon 4 hours ago | parent [-]

It's all psychological inertia. For example even if they knew that Communism would cause tens of millions of deaths they would not nuke USSR.

▲hn_acc1 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not sure that it would be worse than letting the other end of the spectrum be in charge of it, as we've seen..

▲IAmBroom 3 hours ago | parent [-]

We can't know.

As an extreme example, antisemitism was so commonly palatable that an open admirer of Hitler, Charles Lindbergh, was a very serious candidate for the presidency.

Today, open antisemitism can get one's career derailed in much of the world. Would that be true without the eye-opening shock that the news of the concentration camps produced?

IN NOW WAY was the Holocaust forgivable, but we simply cannot say if the world today would be "more moral on average" or "less moral on average". Maybe Jews would feel and be far less safe today in predominantly Christian countries. Maybe not.

All we can say for certain is that the horrors enacted upon the Holocaust victims were evil. As we can surely say that murdering many millions of people living in the USSR would be.

▲ 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
▲senderista 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Even Bertrand Russell briefly advocated this. "Better dead than Red."

▲gradus_ad 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Genuinely curious, because I know von Neumann was an intellectual giant, but what was his most original/groundbreaking contribution? My impression of his work has always been that he would survey a field, find some particular problem that needed attending to, tidily solve it, then move on to some other domain. But I guess there's a latent assumption there that he didn't do anything huge or groundbreaking.

▲curt15 3 hours ago | parent [-]

"Most" involves great subjectivity, but how about laying the mathematical foundations for quantum mechanics?

▲delichon 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Shannon may be gaining on him.

▲cma 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I vote for Wiener at this point

▲ricksunny 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm more of a Vannevar acolyte myself.

▲DonHopkins 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I warmly invite you all to join the Church of the Eval Genius for only $35:

https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/designs/eval/C...

The Holy Trinity:

Father: Alonzo Church: L3 - lambda calculus, the name the institution bears

Son: Alonzo (Snap! mascot) - Incarnation — Gobo, λ on his head

Holy Ghost: λ - First-class procedures; β-reduction; eval-as-spirit

Membership — Eternal Judgment ($35):

https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/designs/eval/C...

John von Neumann tried to hire Church's own student, Turing, who declined. The Father begat the Machine; Johnny wanted to be its landlord.

Ecumenical Outreach: All fans of other gods are welcome. Bring your Vannevar, your Shannon, your Wiener, your Johnny. In the Church of the Eval Genius every god is a procedure, and every procedure may be passed as an argument.

▲snapetom 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Definitely my favorite physicist for the same reason you state. The notion that he just went around different fields and said “here’s how math can improve things,” invented some new approach, and moved on to another field to do it all over again just cracks me up.

▲harpersealtako 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nowadays we'd call that "engineer's disease". I wonder how many potential Von Neumanns were discouraged from branching out into other fields by jealous gatekeepers who assume that any interest in their field by "outsiders", especially technical people, is "epistemic trespassing".

▲cycomanic 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I have yet to meet a (academic) researcher that doesn't like to talk about their research topic if somebody comes and is genuinely interested. I mean most work on a topic that has maybe another 10-100 people in the world who are interested.

The problem is that instead most people to come to them are either obvious crackpots, who think they have solved cancer (energy...) and contact the person because they are a biologist, physicist ... (on a completely unrelated topic usually). Or they come from a place of arrogance, i.e. "we do ... like this, our method is clearly superior you should adopt it", or even worse here buy our clearly superior method.

▲harpersealtako 5 hours ago | parent [-]

An example I can think of off the top of my head is Luis Alvarez, the nobel physicist who came up with the asteroid impact theory of dinosaur extinction. The geology and paleontology community shunned him until the 90s when the Chicxulub crater was discovered (though geology is historically infamous for this, to the extent that nearly every important paradigm shift in geology was made by non-geologist outsiders who faced ridicule for their theories)

▲lalalandland 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For every von Neumann you probably have thousands if not millions of crack pots with ideas not worth wasting time on. So I understand the scepticism

▲hnfong 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If people are assigned a "gatekeeping" position, they should at least be expected to be able to tell great minds from crack pots. (As opposed to just blindly applying a statistical filter)

Otherwise why not just replace them with a script (or these days, an AI)

▲alwa 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Isn’t history replete with examples of great minds who were received as crackpots until, after careers’ worth of labor to validate them, some of their crazy ideas turned out to be correct?

▲qlte 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In this context "gatekeeper" is often defined as broadly as "any individual academic or researcher receiving a cold email".

▲amunozo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

E.g., economics.

▲IAmBroom 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I've literally never met a person who didn't consider themselves economically knowledgeable.

It's like an analog to the fact that almost all people consider themselves funny.

▲ahazred8ta an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has. -- Descartes

▲cindyllm 2 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

▲chucksmash 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems to me it's less about gatekeepers and more whether what you bring to the table is useful to people in that field.

If somebody truly believes they have a useful model then they don't discouraged by academic gatekeeping, they go and build Time Cube.

▲jltsiren 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Usually that's because the engineer is not a very good engineer, at least outside their specialty. If they had studied engineering more, they would have probably learned that other engineers are already doing the thing they proposed.

"Using methodology from a field known for its focus on methodology in another field" was still a novel idea in von Neumann's time. But because von Neumann and others did it, and because millions of people entered science after them, most combinations like that have already been tried. Breakthroughs from combining ideas from unrelated fields require something little less obvious these days.

▲KylerAce 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If someone is equal in talent to Von Neumann it's probably extremely difficult to discourage them enough via gatekeeping to stop them from making progress.

▲bmitc 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's highly unlikely, I think, that another Von Neumann was prevented. He was a singular genius.

However, the gatekeeping you mention definitely occurs to mere mortals who might have an interesting bend on existing ideas.

▲helterskelter2 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Mandelbrot did this too, but he created a lot of animosity in the process because he could be really abrasive.