| ▲ | I Could've Accessed 17T Microsoft Records(blog.faav.net) |
| 152 points by luispa 2 days ago | 71 comments |
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| ▲ | john_strinlai 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| >Microsoft had editorial control over this post, cutting sections and figures and reshaping how the impact is described before publication. that is... not great. shame on microsoft. its actions like that which shed light on why we get the nighmare eclipses of the world. pressuring a kid into handing over full editorial control of a disclosure is gross. |
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| ▲ | rkagerer 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Love to hear more on the motivation for agreeing to this. e.g. The $5000? Amnesty from being sued? | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai a minute ago | parent | next [-] | | i think the answer is simple: they're a kid, and microsoft bullied them. | |
| ▲ | srdjanr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Also he's 16. I'd definitely be less willing to push back (especially on something like this) at his age | | |
| ▲ | p-e-w 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Of course not. You don’t push back on something like that. You hire a lawyer and let them do the pushing for you. If you contact the right NGO, they might even give you one for free. There’s no way I’d sign any agreement with a company like Microsoft regarding an issue like that without a lawyer. I’d rather not disclose at all if those were the only options. | | |
| ▲ | saghm 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I don't know about you, but when I was 16, I never hired a lawyer, and none of the other 16 year olds I knew had either | | |
| ▲ | snapplebobapple 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I've seen hackers. Even if you do it right you're still going to get banned from the internet till you are 18 and dating Angelina Jolie is not the draw it was 20 years ago.... |
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| ▲ | icantevenhold 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not getting your life ruined by getting sued by a trillion dollar company sounds like a pretty good motivation |
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| ▲ | igleria 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | reminds me of a former job in which my goodbye letter was heavily editorialized... | | |
| ▲ | the__alchemist 44 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Would love to hear more. | | |
| ▲ | ceroxylon 21 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I will tell my story: I found a huge accounting error that allowed for several employees to embezzle funds. I disclosed it to the main stakeholders and some people went to jail. The accounting team still refused to acknowledge that the mistake was theirs, so I left on principle. A few weeks later, I was talking to an old colleague and they revealed that the story that came from stakeholders was that the accounting team found the error, and I left in disgrace (despite that not being my department?). So if you find an embarrassing mistake and you do not control the narrative, you have to proceed very carefully. |
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| ▲ | sdfhbdf 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > awarded $5000 It's a little perplexing. Of course it's always a controversial topic since it's difficult to value an exploit, but whenever we read about these online, which probably goes through some survivorship bias, they seem pretty low. On https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/msrc/bounty it seems the top is $100,000 or $250,000 depending which program this counts under. What does HN think? Why would it be only $5000? |
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| ▲ | omoikane 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Every HN post regarding security exploits inevitably results in some comment saying the bounty is too low. I find it helpful to read previous comments by tptacek regarding bug bounties and market values: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... This one probably has the best summary: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43025038 | | |
| ▲ | elmer2 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This is correct. I've made well over six figures over the last couple of years through bug bounty programs. I wouldn't spend months finding one bug. It's usually days or a week or two max. $5,000 is actually pretty normal for a critical. I think the most I received for one bug was around $10,000, but this is the exception. AI has also ruined the market. I'm a security consultant (where I make most of my money) and stopped bug bounty once AI slop reports made it impossible to actually get anything triaged in a timely manner. Something else many don't know is that with all of the major platforms, customers can see the bugs before they are even triaged by the platform team. Many companies are now taking advantage of the long triage times and fixing the bugs before the researcher can get paid. It's then marked as a duplicate and the researcher gets nothing. |
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| ▲ | muglug 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As I understand it, bug bounty awards are a rough proxy for "would nation-state actors be able to exploit this for operational purposes without getting caught". Zero-click iPhone exploits that affect the current OS and also previous ones are worth hundreds of thousands. | | |
| ▲ | yieldcrv an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | thats the true market value of bug bounty awards the unilaterally set awards by the affected corporation are far lower and based on the price of the researcher’s liability | |
| ▲ | buckle8017 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Try 10-20 million USD for a zero click iPhone exploit. |
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| ▲ | giancarlostoro 30 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What's worse is the alternative is winding up like Aaron Swartz... (all he did was scrape PDFs for mostly public funded / tax funded papers) Which is even worse, I think I'd be glad to receive $20 for Starbucks instead of being legally chased for showing them they messed up. There should really be laws for protecting security researchers who produce 0 harm and divulge / share a vulnerability with a service provider. I'd rather the floor be getting no money AND not going to jail or being sued. | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think HN, like a lot of people in this industry, have strongly skewed perception of the actual importance of these bugs. You could view the bounty prices as market evidence that most of this is rightfully treated as nothingburgers. I.e. the alternative to paying $5000 to some random person for this class of vulnerability research is not risking a trillion dollar hack the next day - it's just risking shmaybe some kerfuffle down the line, followed by fixing it through normal triage process. The bounty program is as much marketing as security, and $5000 is probably about the right price for marginal effort into sustaining the "we are treating security seriously" message. In a way, the very existence of those bug bounty programs in large companies is evidence they don't see a reason to treat vulnerabilities seriously enough to proactively find and fix them in-house. If security vulnerabilities would be anywhere serious as most commenters on-line seem to think, companies would pay hundreds of thousands for serious vulnerabilities, just to save a day before they get hit by them - on top of spending millions in-house to try and stay ahead of the attackers. But they don't. Because most exploits are inconsequential and/or aren't being exploited much. | |
| ▲ | bix6 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | $5k is a literal penny for Microsoft. Give the kid $100k. | | |
| ▲ | k2xl 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Per their market cap... 3.85 billion is actually closer to a "penny" for Microsoft. | | |
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| ▲ | Perz1val 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Microsoft's bounty program and payouts are known to be pathetic, see that nightmare eclipse situation |
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| ▲ | throwaway2037 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Hey! I’m Faav. A little over a year ago, when I was 15, I published Break into any Microsoft building: Leaking PII in Microsoft Guest Check-In, my first Microsoft write-up. I’m 16 now, and this one is a little bigger.
Damn, these guys got schooled by a 15 year old! Say less... |
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| ▲ | bsoqk 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You assume that whoever was responsible for the implementation of this feature cares in the slightest beyond “it seems to work”. | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You assume there is any actual reason to care more than that in this case. | |
| ▲ | lurk2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | His comment didn’t assume that at all. | |
| ▲ | ocdtrekkie 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Physical security vendors usually stop exactly there. I can't count how many vendors responsible for badge systems shut off the Windows Firewall just because it’s easier than adding a rule. | |
| ▲ | ToucanLoucan an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Honestly that series of blog posts that came across here semi-recently about what an utter disaster the Azure team is (through little fault of their own, mind you), combined with a lot of things I've read about the development behind Halo Infinite, have convinced me Microsoft is to avoided whenever possible. It's not even that they're too big to care, though that is an issue. It's that organizationally they are SO reliant on short-term contractors and junior devs plugging away with copilot, along with an ever more exhausted group of seniors who actually work for them but are continually disempowered, that I think it's safe to say anything they manage to ship is a minor miracle if it works at all, and it's certainly not going to have any guarantee at all of solid software engineering fundamentals. And to be clear, this is not an issue with them using contractors, overseas or otherwise, or with their senior dev staff, or even with AI really. It's an issue with them organizationally being so incredibly penny-pinching, and so dedicated to shipping new shit versus fixing anything long term, constantly chasing new revenue and letting their existing offerings rot. If a Microsoft product is good nowadays, it is literally a miracle. |
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| ▲ | verst 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There is an internal library at Microsoft that reliably avoids all these JWT problems - Microsoft Identity Service Essentials (MISE). Adopting MISE and upgrading to the latest versions of it have been part of the Secure Future Initiative (SFI) that can be read about in the news of previous years. Unfortunately it sounds like the service team intentionally deferred the compliance alerts they will have received. |
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| ▲ | jhfdbkofdchk 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | There is so much work to do for SFI that is still being ignored. The only way that some of these services will update is by being the target of the red team, security researcher, or threat actor. | | |
| ▲ | verst 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | And all of that is definitely happening. That being said, just last night I observed that the identity team is now opening up agent-assisted PRs against individual service team repos to force MISE adoption and upgrade to the latest version and best practices.
I think that's a great thing because many individual service teams simply lack the bandwidth or knowledge. Prior to GenAI availability I wasted many cycles on this kind of work. While GenAI made it easier - internal source documentation still does not unambiguously address every use case. So having the identity team drive this now with the help of agent sessions initiated by them is great. |
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| ▲ | rdtsc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > {"alg":"none","typ":"JWT"} I don't know how this ever became a thing that was allowed into the spec and then picked from the spec and implemented in various implementations. |
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| ▲ | flowerlad an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | It should be retroactively removed the spec, and all implementations should remove the "none" algorithm. It is a huge security hole. | |
| ▲ | pixl97 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yea, and it was a big issue years ago. I can't believe there is any modern implementation that has it.... or another way to put this is, how old is this damned implementation they are using? |
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| ▲ | er0k 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| wow I am so surprised to hear once again how JWTs are terrible https://www.howmanydayssinceajwtalgnonevuln.com/ |
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| ▲ | fabian2k 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Someone not verifying the signature at all is not a mistake where you can blame the JWT spec itself. | | |
| ▲ | meindnoch 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They did verify the signature, and it was correct according to the "none" algorithm. | | |
| ▲ | fabian2k an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Argh, I missed that it actually uses the "none" algorithm. Yeah, the existence of that option is extremely dumb and it shouldn't be possible to use that. I misread the post and thought it was a regular JWT, but they simply didn't validate it. | |
| ▲ | alex_suzuki 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | “Works as designed.” |
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| ▲ | buckle8017 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | JWT is complicated. Complexity is a spec failure in security issues. It's that simple. |
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| ▲ | talon8635 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Does this extend to OIDC? I’m not knowledgeable on the topic but it uses JWT right? Is it also prone to poor implementation? If you just error on alg=none does that solve it? | |
| ▲ | Perz1val 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Idk if that's not too much of an oversimplification, maybe more like JWTs are an indicator/enabler of architecture level bugs? | |
| ▲ | skhameneh 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Other commenters are suggesting you can’t blame the spec for end implementation mistakes, except that’s one of the many issues - JWT being so error-prone is a problem. I use JWT just for handling of tokens, because it’s so well supported, but I won’t use it for anything more than token storage _because_ it is so vulnerable to mistakes. The fact that mistakes are so easy to make is indicative of poor design in the spec itself. |
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| ▲ | f311a 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What is Antares? Can't find anything related to it except for the 1B model, which does not seem to be capable of autoresearch. UPD: It's his personal bot. |
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| ▲ | Alifatisk 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I also started building AI into how I hunt, which led me to develop Antares, my personal AI hackbot. |
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| ▲ | khalic 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You’re going places kid :) keep up the good work |
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| ▲ | moat 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This kid is 16? Can’t wait to see what he’s up to in 10 years. |
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| ▲ | gnarlouse an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If a 15yo can find it |
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| ▲ | advael an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is a pretty typical example of the security posture of microsoft, and yet people continually buy their arguments that open-source and therefore auditable alternatives are inherently less secure than their "trust me bro" |
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| ▲ | nenadg an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You should have. |
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| ▲ | Kuyawa 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Next time you find a bug like that, offer it to the black market, you could make millions instead of measly salty peanuts |
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| ▲ | sdcfgy 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I bet someone already did that and didn't disclose it. | | |
| ▲ | arm32 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Now some blackhat somewhere can't afford their monthly Lamborghini payment. |
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| ▲ | sdcfgy 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Wait until someone does that to your favourite cloud provider's customer data. |
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| ▲ | ltbarcly3 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > Two quick notes first. The impact I describe is hypothetical. It’s what an attacker could have done with this access, but luckily I found the bug instead, reported it, and never touched any customer data or PII. I am the last person to judge someone for using AI to help them write a blog post, but what I wonder is: Do people not read what the AI produces before putting their name on it, or is the AI writing style not obvious to some people, or do they just not care that it's obviously AI and bad style? |
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| ▲ | t-writescode 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That.. looks like a normal sentence to me, and very probably one of the ones Microsoft required they add. Did you give the article a once-over beyond that? It’s one of the decidedly not-AI lines. | | |
| ▲ | 0x_rs 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not a "normal" sentence and is quite clearly produced by an LLM, it's a typical Claudeism so probably that. The entire post is also flagged by Pangram, so OP is correct. | |
| ▲ | ltbarcly3 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Prefixing saying something with "Two quick notes first" is extremely common AI meta commentary. You may be right that it is something Microsoft insisted he put at the top, which would also explain the weird style. | | |
| ▲ | functionmouse 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | From where do you think AI learned that? | | |
| ▲ | ltbarcly3 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Learning a phrase from humans doesn’t prevent a model from overusing it or making it a recognizable stylistic habit. | |
| ▲ | vonneumannstan 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Weird user preferences during RLHF. Also how we got bulleted lists and emojis everywhere. | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | All AI semantic tendencies were “learned” from us. That doesn’t change anything. |
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| ▲ | eviks 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | All of the above, though mostly the last one. | |
| ▲ | gosub100 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Explain why easily 40% of HN posts are about AI, and when people actually _use_ AI for this task, they are vilified for (allegedly) using it. | | |
| ▲ | ltbarcly3 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I pasted the thread into ChatGPT and here is what it would like to tell you: The comment explicitly says, “I am the last person to judge someone for using AI to help them write a blog post.” The criticism is about the quality of the published prose and whether anyone reviewed it before putting their name on it. You can dispute whether that sentence is bad or whether it indicates AI authorship. But “why criticize unedited AI prose when HN talks about AI so much?” doesn’t identify a contradiction. Discussing a technology doesn’t imply endorsing every use of it, and criticizing its output isn’t the same as vilifying someone for using it. — GPT-6.1 Sol | |
| ▲ | bix6 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | He’s fine to use the AI for bug hunting but nobody wants to read AI’s bullshit slop and tone | | |
| ▲ | icantevenhold 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m as tired of slopped up text as the next person but the example OP gave really isn’t that bad |
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