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▲ metalspot 5 hours ago

There is a failure to understand that the process is the result. You don't study mathematics or computer science and information theory to produce commodities. You study them to transform your mind. The output of an LLM is useless without a human mind to comprehend it. We can have Super Intelligence, but if humans are incapable of comprehending it, it is just another useless dead artifact. Practice, applied over a lifetime, is what creates the capability for comprehension. Asking an LLM to give you an answer creates an artifact. Humans being humans, most of their requests boil down to "make me rich without having to work for it," so the request itself is paradoxical and impossible to satisfy. Philosophers have only been saying this for all of human history, so don't hold your breath for any breakthroughs.

▲delis-thumbs-7e 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Precisely. I don’t really care whether LLM’s can produce code more and better than me. I learn languages, program and study computation to understand better the world we live in. Being a human being means increasingly being technologically augmented. To have any deep understanding of that world requires deep understanding of maths, physics, programming etc. that you can only gather by doing those things and solving problems with your meat brain.

There’s a Twitch-streamer Tsoding who programs on C for fun calling it “recreational coding”. Maybe human programming will be a form of art in the future, virtually useless for big corporations to make money. I don’t care, I love it anyway.

▲throw93038383 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> To have any deep understanding of that world requires deep understanding of maths, physics, programming etc. that you can only gather by doing those things and solving problems with your meat brain.

There is tons of evidence against that. Someone armed with just LLM, can have much better uderstanding of problem then "meat brain expert" who studied the subject for decades.

We seen in last decades how "experts" are clueless, and how they predictions work.

> don’t really care whether LLM’s can produce code more and better than me

So on one side there is monopoly on "deep understanding", but on other no one really cares about quality?

▲delis-thumbs-7e an hour ago | parent [-]

You are both reading too hastily to quite grasp what I am claiming as well as making claims and assumptions you do not back with evidence. If there is tons of evidence how a person with LLM can understand - I was speaking of the world and times we live in, not just single problem - a problem an expert does, it is quite trivial for you to present that evidence.

Mind you,solving a problem is not same as understanding it. Anyone can just take a science calculator and bunch in some function without understanding anything about how to solve it.

▲rienbdj 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Great but you will no longer be paid to do what you love.

▲robotpepi an hour ago | parent | next [-]

History teaches us that understanding deep problems in mathematics finds natural applications elsewhere. So, either AI completely solves mathematics (unlikely for the moment), or we use marginal amount of funding to keep the mathematical communities alive.

▲delis-thumbs-7e an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I have never been paid to do what I love. Well, I got couple of art grants some years ago.

▲KurSix an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

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▲ 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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▲gjskngnf 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The output of an LLM is useless without a human mind to comprehend it.

I don’t understand mRNA vaccines, but they are useful to me. The output of an LLM could at least in theory be the design to a major technological advancement, and its implementation with automatic tooling. We don’t have to understand that for it to be useful.

▲joshmoody24 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

An LLM could also in theory fake alignment and create technology that seems really useful but secretly harms humanity in the long run. If humans don't understand what it does, that possibility becomes more likely.

▲metalspot 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

mRNA vaccines were created by humans who understood them. You exist within a society (a networked distributed information system) where you accept the judgement of the humans who understand and create this things, which is how you end up benefiting without personally understanding.

If we imagine Super Intelligence, where NO human is capable of understanding, then how would it ever be possible for any human to identify what is actually beneficial or not?

This resolves in a paradox, common to all magical thinking. You can certainly wish that some all powerful benevolent entity will solve all of your problems for you, but it is not likely to work out well.

None of this is new. It is the same delusions as alchemy and the same thing that tales about genies warn of.

▲throw93038383 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> mRNA vaccines were created by humans who understood them

If authors understood them, why most of their predictions were wrong? Time to decompose spike proteins, side effects, distribution through brrast milk....

Event the most basic promise 100% protection against infection was wrong! They lied and we allowed infected people into hospitals!

▲eli_gottlieb 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> You don't study mathematics or computer science and information theory to produce commodities. You study them to transform your mind.

Normatively, this ought to be true. Descriptively, this is of course false. Our entire society is organized around producing commodities, typically by consuming people as inputs.

▲xanderlewis 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It’s not ‘of course false’, and, to be honest, I can only assume you have little idea what mathematicians actually do.

Most pure mathematicians are no more interested in ‘producing commodities’ than any other academic is. That’s not what the subject is about — at all. The confusion arises because mathematics turns out to be extremely useful (no surprise; it’s quite useful to have a detailed understanding of the basic principles of reality).

Again, this seems to be an alarmingly common fallacy here on HN. As a commenter above observed, pure mathematics (and that is what we’re talking about here) is in important ways closer to the humanities than it is to other sciences.

▲mik1998 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not exactly. The input to produce commodities is labour-power (the potential to perform labour). Education or study is the process of producing the commodity of labour-power, the potential labour of a mathematician who can do some sort of specific work.

▲charcircuit 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>The output of an LLM is useless without a human mind to comprehend it

This is like saying software is useless if the user doesn't read the source code of it. This what happens >99.99999% a person uses software. People want to be entertained or have their problems solved.

▲robotpepi 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Your analogy doesn't work. A "product" in research pure math is not the same as writing code.

▲echelon 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> You don't study mathematics or computer science and information theory to produce commodities. You study them to transform your mind.

That's nonsense. Of course you study them to meet demand.

▲metalspot 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> you study them to meet demand

nobody who has ever achieved notoriety in any intellectual field ever did it to "meet demand." if your goal is to be an interchangeable widget that produces value as part of a corporate machine that exists for the enrichment of your shareholders, you are certainly free to choose that path, but don't imagine that is the limit of human existence. also, don't be surprise when you are replaced by AI, because it is a superior widget.

▲echelon 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The desire for novelty and to be first is demand. The publishing and grant writing. The whole funding and tenure apparatus. It's nothing but demand gradients.

▲bsoqk an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People who study STEM for the enrichment of their intellect are privileged. Most of us had to study STEM (or whatever else) because we had bills to pay.

▲Krei-se an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

sad

▲KurSix an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

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