| ▲ | sajithdilshan a day ago |
| It more due to the fact that the politicians are on a moral kow-it-all high horse than being pragmatic and putting national interest first. As an example all EU leaders absolutely refused to talk with Russia/Putin on putting an end to the war and they were hell bent on militarily defeating Russia. I remember the previous German Chancellor had a phone call with Putin to discuss it and everyone was shitting on him for doing that. But now Trump is inviting Putin to G20 and I'm sure sure all those EU politician would be all smily and act like no war is going on and gladly talk with Putin. If you think about it the war could have ended years ago and all the Ukranian/Russian lives lost could have been avoided if EU leaders were not so arrogant. |
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| ▲ | MobiusHorizons a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| > If you think about it the war could have ended years ago and all the Ukranian/Russian lives lost could have been avoided if EU leaders were not so arrogant. How exactly is Europe to blame for Russia continuing its war in Ukraine? Russia has clearly demonstrated a lack of interest in peace on any terms that could be acceptable to Ukraine. |
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| ▲ | brokencode a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How do you think the war could have ended? With Ukraine’s surrender? Not such an easy thing to say if you’re the one facing that threat. Nobody wants their own country to be invaded and conquered. And Russia would take that as a green light to keep on conquering other former Soviet states. Where do you draw the line? |
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| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > But now Trump is inviting Putin to G20 and I'm sure sure all those EU politician would be all smily and act like no war is going on and gladly talk with Putin Putin is deathly afraid of being assassinated and is avoiding air travel in favor of trains, and has identical offices to film in at multiple locations to hide his location. There is no chance he is getting on a plane to Florida. > If you think about it the war could have ended years ago and all the Ukranian/Russian lives lost could have been avoided if EU leaders were not so arrogant. How so? By Europe rolling over and not supporting Ukraine? |
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| ▲ | bpodgursky a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sorry this is a crazy interpretation of events. Europe has 15x the GDP of Russia. If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it. Instead, the vacillated on importing US natural gas, continued shutting down nuclear power plants, and paid Russia MORE CASH FOR OIL than they ended up giving Ukraine in military aid! They did not in fact, dedicate themselves to this war in any way shape or form. |
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| ▲ | PorciiVorbesc a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it. We already did that. Welfare and funding to social services, elderly care, etc is significantly reduced and with higher bar to get than before 2022 where I live. Plus we're also paying the price in higher housing costs thanks to housing millions of Ukrainians. It's easy to want a higher reduction on welfare services when you're not the one needing them. It's easy to write cheques that other people have to cash. | | |
| ▲ | hunterpayne 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That was always going to happen. The war just makes that worse. The demographics and lack of economic growth were always going to break those welfare systems. How much they break and who loses out were the only real questions. | |
| ▲ | gib444 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Welfare and funding to social services, elderly care, etc is significantly reduced and with higher bar to get than before 2022 where I live. Same here! I'd actually say it's basically shut down to new people. I have spoken to 5 different health/government departments just trying to get some care for my elderly family member who lives alone and has badly hurt both legs, but I have been denied, denied and denied and lied to at every single stage. "We have no money", "Go private", "We are at capacity", "There is a 16 week wait for an assessment", "You can only access us via your GP" [lie] All because they aren't retirement age yet - then they get more red carpet treatment. The Government is also busy trying to figure out how to cut welfare for those who don't vote in sufficient numbers to matter | | |
| ▲ | PorciiVorbesc a day ago | parent [-] | | >All because they aren't retirement age yet Have you told them to jump on a small inflatable boat, throw away their passports and enter the EU via the Mediterranean? They'll get first class treatment for all their needs on the taxpayers' dime. Because if they don't get it, there's a dozen NGOs paid from your taxes that will sue their government for breaking their human rights for not providing them with the housing and care they need. | | |
| ▲ | gib444 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Mhmm it's hard not to feel aggrieved with people who get certain basic care no-questions-asked when there are so many reports of questionable claims of what they're fleeing from/age/origin etc and given the numbers (~220k asylum seekers in the system as of 2024, and conveniently a 'transition to a new caseworking system' has prevented any newer figures being published) But I think we have bigger taxation/spending and economic issues in the UK. Nobody really cares about asylum seekers/immigrants when the economy is booming, jobs are plentiful and inflation is low. We do seem have a defective system in which people who suddenly need help after having a job and paying lots of tax are more-or-less ignored, but life-long welfare claimants are already so entrenched in the system, it's just a continuation. Job Seeker's benefit is £408/mo for a maximum of 6 months and only if you had paid sufficient tax in the 2 years prior – basically just a small tax refund but only if you follow the rules imposed upon you by your 'job coach'. And that benefit doesn't then entitle you to any other discount/benefits unlike certain other benefits. It's designed to make you to take any job that turns up – indeed your work 'coach' will likely force you to do that. Rant over lol |
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| ▲ | bpodgursky a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you for real? Look into France's pension situation. The median pensioner has HIGHER INCOME than the median working adult. And retirement was at 62! No, there have been absolutely no real cuts to elderly care, the UK's triple lock ensures that the situation gets monotonically worse until the system collapses. | | |
| ▲ | PorciiVorbesc a day ago | parent [-] | | >Are you for real? YES. I don't live in France or the UK. >No, there have been absolutely no real cuts to elderly care Yeah they have. My city is short 30 million Euros on disability care this year despite increases in taxes. I (non retiree) now need to wait 6+ months for a surgery when it used to be 2, and pay from my taxes for money and weapons to Ukraine and housing to Ukrainian refugees in my city while they have nicer cars than me and don't pay the back breaking car taxes because they leave them on UA plates. I don't necessarily mind that per se, but I do mind being berated as if I'm not sacrificing enough. Please set an example and sacrifice yourself and your family for Ukraine before lecturing us. | | |
| ▲ | Scoundreller 42 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > because they leave them on UA plates which EU country permits non-EU plates (and insurance?) indefinitely? |
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| ▲ | sajithdilshan a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help Why do you think an entire continent with multiple and (sometimes even conflicting with each other) culture, priorities, national interest would do that? EU is an economic union. Not a federation like US | | |
| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny a day ago | parent [-] | | Because NATO article 5 demands it. European support started out slow, but has ramped up as the US has backed away. Germany will spend 20% of it's federal budget on military in 2027, planning to increase that to 30% by 2030. "We cannot defend ourselves against Putin with a balanced budget". | | |
| ▲ | dns_snek a day ago | parent | next [-] | | What does NATO article 5 have to do with Ukraine? | | |
| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny a day ago | parent [-] | | The parent was talking about the disunity of Europe in standing up to Putin. What would come next after Ukraine may be the Baltic states or Poland. | | |
| ▲ | sajithdilshan a day ago | parent [-] | | > What would come next after Ukraine may be the Baltic states or Poland. According to your YouTube sources? NATO has nothing to do with Ukraine. NATO countries can defend themselves if one of those countries actually are being attacked. That happened in 9/11 and NATO countries supporting militarily the US wars that preceded. They have no such obligation towards Ukraine. | | |
| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny a day ago | parent [-] | | They have no NATO obligation towards Ukraine, but I'd say they do have a moral one, and they also have their own self-interest. | | |
| ▲ | sajithdilshan 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | There is no such thing as moral obligation when it comes to politics and national interest. If it’s your country, then it’s your job to defend it or whatever. So far it doesn’t seem to be serving their self interest supporting an endless war. | | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | There is no such thing as moral obligation when it comes to politics and national interest. There is if you ever want to negotiate a nuclear arms-control deal again. None of this would be an issue if Ukraine had kept their nukes. | |
| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Their self-interest is in keeping Putin at arms length and avoiding WW III. Putin is already threatening Lithuania, sending drones into Poland. If Putin wasn't prevented from taking Ukraine, do you really think it would end there? |
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| ▲ | sajithdilshan a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ukraine is not a NATO member |
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| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Europe has been stepping up a lot recently, given Trump's reluctance to push back against Putin - looks at UK/France supply of missile and anti-missile systems and IP to Ukraine, stepped up air defense based out of Lithuania (anticipating Kaliningrad as the first front of the war), etc. | | |
| ▲ | bpodgursky a day ago | parent [-] | | No, they have not been "stepping up" relative to the existential threat at their door. They are still doing 10% of the minimum you'd expect from someone whose literal lives and civilization are at risk from a barbarian threat literally murdering their neighbors (and playing games with their own sovereignty more recently, with drone incursions). |
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| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The only way to stop Putin is with military force. Europe is of course well aware that war with Russia seems increasingly inevitable, and have been preparing for it. |
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| ▲ | sajithdilshan a day ago | parent [-] | | > Europe is of course well aware that war with Russia seems increasingly inevitable, and have been preparing for it What is the source for this? I have seen some news articles with this narrative, it was more on the line of fear-mongering rather than providing evidence. | | |
| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny a day ago | parent [-] | | Ukraine is only Putin's first step, and Europe is well aware of that, so look at all the advanced weapons systems Europe is now giving to Ukraine (Storm Shadow, SCALP, SAMP/T etc), as well as the statements they are making. They are well aware this has made them a target for Putin, with UK missiles having been used against Black Sea targets etc, but are doing it all the same. Europe is not tolerating Russian drone incursions, and has been shooting them down, have been on air combat footing patrolling the finish border and Kalinograd region (operating out of Lithuania), boosting defense of the Suwałki Gap, etc. YouTube is perhaps one of the best sources of information, since US MSM is not interested. | | |
| ▲ | sajithdilshan a day ago | parent [-] | | > YouTube is perhaps one of the best sources of information, since US MSM is not interested You lost me at this. If your official source of information is YouTube, then good luck. | | |
| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny a day ago | parent [-] | | Try googling for information and use whichever news sources you prefer - just don't expect to find Fox News talking about it. |
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| ▲ | kettleballroll a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| That's a weird stance to take. If someone invaded a other territory next to yours and some of your unions members fear they're next, business as usual is the wrong strategy, imo |
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| ▲ | sajithdilshan a day ago | parent [-] | | That's why diplomacy is important. There is no scenario that Europe, let alone Ukraine can militarily defeat Russia (a country with nuclear weapons). I understand defending the territory. But what is the end game? fight forever? or mutual destruction? | | |
| ▲ | rcxdude a day ago | parent [-] | | Kick them out so they gain nothing and have a credible enough deterrent they don't try again. This is also well below the stated threshold for Russia escalating to nukes but well above the threshold of military defeat. | | |
| ▲ | sajithdilshan a day ago | parent [-] | | what if they cannot be kicked out? fight forever till Ukraine runs out of men to send to war? | | |
| ▲ | rcxdude a day ago | parent [-] | | Then that is a loss, yes. It is an attritional war: whoever runs out of resources or will first loses. I don't think most of Europe has internalised how big of a loss that would be. |
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