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▲ asdff 4 hours ago

The hard part is that we've structured life such that you are on a fixed income at the end of your life in no position really to deal with inflation. At least when you are still working, in theory at least your wages will go up with inflation. This is really why prop 13 happened to pass at all: the idea of being displaced at the end of your life out of the home you already paid off due to market forces you aren't even a participant in is actually widely unpopular even if it makes better economic sense.

▲vineyardmike 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> the idea of being displaced at the end of your life out of the home

I would argue that this is unpopular not only amongst retirees but everyone. And it would have tons of negative side effects.

Why would I fix up my house to look nice, if I’ll be displaced? Why would I invest in my child’s local school system, if we could be displaced? Why would I do any community outreach or support, or get involved in local politics? How can banks underwrite loans if the affordability can fluctuate wildly? Look at the life of people who live in mobile homes and trailer parks - they essentially rent the land, and it’s oppressive because they can’t afford to move (actually moving or repurposing land is hard) but their cost to stay is unpredictable.

The only people this is appealing for are people who fancy themselves analytically minded economists with no interest in the practical humanity of the people living there and renters hoping to finally do the displacing for their own affordability.

▲kelnos 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The only people this is appealing for are people who fancy themselves analytically minded economists with no interest in the practical humanity

Most states in the US do not have Prop-13-like laws and get by just fine. For the few states that do, they are less restrictive taxation-wise than California's.

Prop 13 has completely distorted the housing market; it is, perhaps unintuitively, a co-cause of CA's housing unaffordability issues. (Prop 13 discourages new development, and is an enabler of housing NIMBYism.)

We of course shouldn't just abolish Prop 13 overnight, or lots of people will get displaced, also overnight. But we should absolutely reform it and phase it out over time, while building more housing, as fast as we can (something that will be a little bit easier to do as all the NIMBYs realize that if they keep shooting down housing projects, their property taxes are gonna go up a ton).

▲zdragnar 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Most states also rely on sales taxes and various fees, and assign limited property taxes. A Georgist land value tax would have much greater effects than the current tax regimes.

▲asdff 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Prop 13 is a bit of a nothingburger anyhow when you consider median homeownership period in CA is only like 2 years longer than national average, rather than the myth that seems to be perpetuated of every home being a 40+ year hold paying a couple dollars in property taxes. And when that home is sold the tax assessment of course goes right back to market rate, and boy that is substantial when you have what would be a 450k home outside of Boston go for 2.1m with a 1% tax. 21 thousand a year off a single 50ft wide lot is no slouch in terms of tax revenue.

▲vlovich123 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> And when that home is sold the tax assessment of course goes right back to market rate, and boy that is substantial when you have what would be a 450k home outside of Boston go for 2.1m with a 1% tax. 21 thousand a year off a single 50ft wide lot is no slouch in terms of tax revenue.

The problem is all the tax revenue being lost at the municipality level for decades. National tenure average is ~12 years. Los Angeles is 20 years, SF is 16.5 and SJC is in between. It clearly has a meaningful effect, it's just harder to buy into the market and keep the home over a long period of time.

▲wahern an hour ago | parent | next [-]

San Francisco receives over $3,000 per capita in property tax revenue alone. Dallas receives about $1,200 per capita. NYC is less than $1,000, though I gather NYC has their own property tax issues.

And California has an income tax, whereas Texas doesn't.

Prop 13 has it's problems, but I don't think they're as significant as the rhetoric claims. It makes for a great excuse, though. Politicians can blame Prop 13 for why they can't spend as much on services as people demand, and now it's become the common wisdom--but for Prop 13 California could afford to spend much more than it does, and the housing affordability crisis would end, too. It's just wishful thinking.

▲ an hour ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
▲coryrc an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not reset of you inherit, or a bunch of other bullshit exemptions.

We live in a gerontacracy. Every advantage and tax break and handout is given to the elderly and the ladder has fully been pulled up for the new generations.

▲ 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
▲ajmurmann 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Retirees are not on fixed income and haven't been for decades. Social Security gets adjusted for inflation. 401ks grow. https://www.slowboring.com/p/seniors-arent-living-on-fixed-i...

▲Tiktaalik 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a solved problem in other jurisdictions. Effectively you can just allow seniors to defer their property taxes at low interest rates and it becomes a liability on the house when it is transferred on death.

▲chasd00 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This is how the government countered the people demanding the end of debtor’s prison. And it’s not “transferred on death” it’s whenever the house is sold whether the owner is alive or not. Property tax is just rent paid to the government and the taxman always gets their dues one way or the other.

▲m463 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the marketing of prop 13 was old people getting kicked out of their houses.

But I think the majority of the tax avoidance goes to not-old-people, like immortal corporations that can own the land forever.

EDIT: random link - it seems like residential owners don't benefit anywhere NEAR as much as commercial, rental and industrial entitites.

https://youngamericans.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/...

▲larsiusprime 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The linked study in OP shows that the single biggest beneficiary of Prop 13 on a category basis was vacant land.

▲kelnos 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The key bit is that California is relatively unique here. There are a few other states that have Prop-13-like laws, but California's is the most restrictive and incumbent-homeowner-friendly. All those other states (and the ones with nothing similar) seem to get along just fine.

Of course, the solution to increased demand (driving increases in property market value) is to build more housing. Without Prop 13, a big chunk of the NIMBYs who are currently against more housing would likely change their tune if they had to choose between no new housing or much higher property taxes.

I think it would be reasonable and productive to phase out Prop 13 over time, rather than immediately getting rid of it. We could structure it so a property doesn't lose Prop 13 protection until the next time it's sold (and then it never has that protection again). We could completely remove the inheritance loophole (which was tightened up in 2020 but still exists). We could even set a date, say, 10 or 15 years in the future, when re-assessments at market value will start for everyone, regardless of whether or not they've sold. We could also phase in higher allowed assessment percentage increases over time (right now it's capped at 2% per year, but we could, say, add 0.5% to that figure every year for some number of years).

Hell, we could even leave Prop 13 in place as it is today, and just bump up the assessment increase cap to 5% or 10% or something like that. (Texas, for reference, has their own 10% yearly cap on assessment increases.)

There are so many ways to solve this, but all of them are politically unpopular. (Hell, we couldn't even reform Prop 13 as it applies to commercial properties.) As a homeowner in California, I get it, but I still support Prop 13 reform and eventual Prop 13 abolishment.

▲asdff 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Most of the other states have not seen the rise in population growth and real estate values seen in CA. There are still places where homes are like 250k or less. There is also way more value drop off outside the metros in most other states with high cost cities such as MA or NY. You could be 30 mins drive from boston in a great 400k home. Try and find that 30 mins out from SF or LA. There just isn't really that fall off in california that you might expect from real estate markets elsewhere. It is like the rising tide has lifted all boats.

▲Avicebron 3 hours ago | parent [-]

To be fair 250K homes and under homes are increasingly uncommon and increasingly undesirable. Rural areas with almost zero industry are averaging out at 600-750K. Maybe a bit of a downward trend, but the average salary in the area is like 50K. so it doesn't matter.

▲asdff 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>Rural areas with almost zero industry are averaging out at 600-750K.

Where exactly? Not true for the midwest. E.g. (1,2,3)

1. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/933-Atmore-Ct-Indianapoli...

2. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10916-S-Wabash-Ave-Chicag...

3. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3920-15th-Ave-S-Minneapol...

Here's what you might find 20 miles outside boston, this one is 350k:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/55-Emory-St-Brockton-MA-0...

▲ 2 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
▲thatfrenchguy 24 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> Without Prop 13, a big chunk of the NIMBYs who are currently against more housing would likely change their tune if they had to choose between no new housing or much higher property taxe

I mean, the way you make housing units more affordable is to make more of them, but for existing homeowners of SFH, building condo buildings in their neighborhood will increase their property value because the competition for the remaining lots increase. Given we build close to zero family friendly multi family in this country (ie, appartments buildings have zero family oriented amnenities), there isn’t much in there for nimbys. It’s the right thing to do but you can’t except nimbys to join in on a purely monetary basis.

▲xvedejas 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Empirically, according to Doucet, a land value tax would only raise average tax rates if you're living on a parking lot, or vacant lot. Aging homeowners would mostly see a slight decline in their property taxes ( California excluded ).

▲noosphr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A land tax means that you don't own property but rent it.

This is bringing us back to the dark ages in terms of land rights.

▲sdthjbvuiiijbb 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>A land tax means that you don't own property but rent it.

A few comments:

1) we already have property taxes so I don't understand the objection; a land value tax is just a property tax with a different way of assessing value.

2) I don't think this idea of "not owning property, only renting it" is actually that crazy if you take a long term view over it. Land is a finite, shared resource. We already acknowledge that you don't have absolute rights over land that you own in the same way you do over, say, a toaster. We place all kinds of restrictions on what you can do with it, we tax its ownership, we have eminent domain laws, etc.

The idea of treating land as a pure asset has had a lot of negative social effects and ultimately will lead to a kind of neo-feudalism where the megarich own everything and the underclasses are perpetual renters.

▲noosphr 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>Land is a finite, shared resource.

Everything is a finite shared resource.

That's the point of ownership.

>The idea of treating land as a pure asset has had a lot of negative social effects and ultimately will lead to a kind of neo-feudalism where the megarich own everything and the underclasses are perpetual renters.

The idea that land is not a pure asset leads to regular feudalism.

▲Avicebron an hour ago | parent [-]

> The idea that land is not a pure asset leads to regular feudalism.

Yup. And despite the claims made that it's a solution for the common folk, the people who "own" and can make decisions about the land will be the megarich, so it will be feudalism, with rent due on the land you own.

▲txhwind 5 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

every tax can be expaned to a infinite series of rent.

▲mitxela 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you can own land, what happens when all the land is owned but newly born people need some?

▲chasd00 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Drive through New Mexico, there’s a lot of land.

▲noosphr 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Old people die.

▲octoberfranklin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Washington has a much lower property tax rate for a primary residence owned by a person over 65 years old.

▲someguydave an hour ago | parent [-]

Total Boomer Luxury Communism