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| ▲ | hackernud3s 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm going back to Oct 7 for my argument. You can go back to Oct 8 for yours but you'd be arguing in bad faith. | | |
| ▲ | tancop 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | How is it bad faith? This whole situation is a cycle of revenge going back at least to the 1920s with conflicts between Arabs and Jewish settlers in Mandatory Palestine. Israel is killing civilians, but Hamas attacked them, but the IDF was enforcing segregation, but they had to show force after the intifadas... And you can trace that back to the Balfour declaration being unclear, and rabbis who started religious Zionism feeling entitled to the land, and antisemitic massacres in Europe that inspired Theodor Herzl to campaign for a Jewish state. Or even further back until you end up in Biblical times. You can't just pick a start date and decide who is responsible for all this. | | |
| ▲ | hackernud3s 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's bad faith because no sane person would willfully ignore the cause of the current conflict when making an argument about who started it. | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wouldn't call Palestinian resistance "revenge". If someone stole your land, trying to get it back isn't really revenge imho. I think going back to the creation of Zionism is the best starting point. Ashkenazis are mostly European, so it doesn't make sense to go back to biblical times (which were mostly fictional anyway). This is a pretty textbook case of European colonization. |
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| ▲ | kakacik 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is correct approach, both sides are beyond abhorable in their own special ways and any decent human being with understanding of current situation and historical path leading to it has no reason to support either. One side shouting the other is worse because XYZ is childish, not factual. Abhorable, both, thats it. | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Anyone with a decent historical understanding would support Hamas, just like people who know history support the Haitian slave rebellion. People have a right to resist occupation and genocide. | | |
| ▲ | hackernud3s 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There was no "genocide" until Hamas poked that bear. You could make the case for occupation, but then you would have to pack your bags and hand your house keys over to descendants of whoever lived there 80 years ago or risk being called a hypocrite. | |
| ▲ | chmod775 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What a strange world we live in. I never expected to see someone on HN openly supporting the murder of civilian men, women and children for the crime of living in a country that is at war with the perpetrators. That's a psychopaths twisted understanding of "eye for an eye" justice. Thank god most of the world has since risen above that. | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | This isn't taking my argument in good faith. Occupation resistance is none of the things you've stated and the reality of Zionism doesn't match your description, even remotely. If people break into your house, murder your family, then move in. You have every right to fight back. This is a historical standard well accepted by international groups. The Haitian Slave revolt, Pueblo revolt and Warsaw rebellion are all other analogous examples. | | |
| ▲ | chmod775 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Fighting back is legitimate. Doing so by essentially any means is not. The murder of civilians is where any side loses my support. | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They're not "civilians" if they're living on stolen land. Again, this is a very well accepted standard. | | |
| ▲ | chmod775 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | We all live on land that at some point someone else considered their own. Also I can tell just and unjust apart on my own, and I do not need some "international group" or "historical standard" to stand in for my frontal lobe and morals. Thank you very much. | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | We do live on stolen land, and when the indigenous fought back and killed people living on that land it was valid resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pueblo_Revolt > I do not need some "international group" or "historical standard" to replace my frontal lobe and cognitive empathy. Thank you very much. While understandable, this is a privileged take from someone who didn't have their family murdered by occupiers. | | |
| ▲ | chmod775 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | History is barbaric and abhorrent. I'd rather we aim higher than use it to justify modern-day cruelty. | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | But this is the point! Israel and the Zionists are reenacting the worst crime in human history (the genocide and colonization of the Americas). They are, in 2026 doing what the Spanish did in the 1600s and getting the same resulting rebellion from the occupied people. Edit: I'm throttled, but I'll leave you with my final thought... I won't condemn resistance. I would never condemn people who fight occupation and genocide. I don't see us closing this gap, but I hope you can try to imagine what it was like if you were a slave, an indigenous American or a Palestinian. If you were really in their situation, what would you do? It's also worth mentioning that the Palestinians have tried peaceful resistance and the Israelis sniped thousands of them, including children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_... > The same is true for the other side. More than 64,000 children have been killed in Gaza and only 19% of Israelis think the IDF have gone too far and 34% think they haven't gone far enough: https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-50000-children-killed... https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-... | | |
| ▲ | chmod775 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > But this is the point! Israel and the Zionists are reenacting the worst crime in human history (the genocide and colonization of the Americas). They are, in 2026 doing what the Spanish did in the 1600s and getting the same resulting rebellion from the occupied people. Yes, but I will still condemn both sides, even if one is merely responding in kind. If it was in my power, I'd lock them all up. Hamas' and Israel's leadership, as well as anyone who directly comitted those acts. Then I'd replace Israel/Palestine with something democratic similar to Lebanon's solution of accomodating multiple major religions. > If you were really in their situation, what would you do? I am perfectly confident that the average palestinian would not go through with killing a civilian Israeli woman or child even if you loaded and pointed the gun for them. The same is true for the other side. The Israeli government/IDF and Hamas represent the worst of both. |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | kakacik 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Looking at your comment history, oh boy you sure are one sided. No doubt version of history in your head conveniently justifies it, its just... not a complete history, is it. | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is one of the most one sided issues in modern human history. Stealing land is wrong, murdering people who live on that land is wrong. The number of people who support Zionism is rapidly dwindling and won't exist outside of Israel once the baby boomers are gone. Israel will go the way of Rhodesia within the next decade. |
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