| ▲ | awesome_dude a day ago |
| There's absolutely no way to account for humans, who can be tricked, or pressured, or just make human sized mistakes. |
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| ▲ | josephg a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| Again, of course there is. Decades ago, I worked in a bank in an old building. The door had a card reader for access. You boop your card and the door opened. People would hold the door open for each other all the time out of politeness, even when they didn't know each other. Security told us not to do that, but it's hard to convince people to stop being polite. I had a laptop stolen from my desk in a place like that once. (Not a bank - but similar door-card reader system). This guy came in in the middle of the day, wearing overalls. He confidently walked through the door after someone, like he belonged there. He walked up to my desk, swiped my laptop and just strolled out. At the bank, they've replaced the door with mechanical gates and a security guard. The gates - physically - only let one person to walk through at a time. You can't hold a gate open any more. And the security guards stop anyone who tries. Is it 100% foolproof? No. But it's way more secure. It would have stopped that laptop thief. There's this pernicious, defeatist attitude that if you can't make a system 100% secure, so you shouldn't try. That's misguided. Most systems can be made orders of magnitude more secure than they are today. It just takes a bit of care and work. |
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| ▲ | wombatpm a day ago | parent [-] | | As soon as you make something foolproof, the universe evolves a better fool | | |
| ▲ | josephg a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Fine. Make the universe work for it. The whole system becomes more resilient as a result. Look at our immune system. Incredibly complex and clever, and able to keep us alive in the face of all sorts of pathogens. It exists because of this cat and mouse game, played over millions of years. There's people in the highlands of PNG who regularly eat each other. Of course, many are thought to have died due to prion diseases. But now these tribespeople seem to have become largely immune to prion disease. Incredible. | | |
| ▲ | lazide 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The best way to make them work for it? Put it on paper. | | |
| ▲ | josephg 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Put what on paper? I don’t understand your comment. | | |
| ▲ | lazide 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Don’t store important and sensitive data in databases or computers at all. Put it on paper. Computers make copying, processing, manipulating, and disseminating information easy. That is a bad thing for some kinds of information. |
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| ▲ | awesome_dude a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | We still get diseases though, proving the point that millions of years of evolution are still not enough to build a perfect defence. Your comment on PNG, seems to ignore Kuru | | |
| ▲ | defrost a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It explicitly mentions Kuru as "prion disease", it ignores that the mortuary practice of eating various parts of respected dead has long passed in time .. although the lingering effect on the woman and children that ate portions of the brain in the 1970s, early 1980s, is still residual in a very few. From an evolutionary PoV a perfect defence is overkill - with two separate defences against prion diseases in that region it's only the rare variation that causes any issue - and that rarely occurs before a new generation is birthed - ie. 'perfect' from the PoV of the selfish genes. | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude a day ago | parent [-] | | The claim is that people in PNG are "largely immune" to these diseases, where kuru shows that they are not, and the "cure" was a stop in the practice, not some evolutionary upgrade | | |
| ▲ | defrost a day ago | parent | next [-] | | They are largely immune to Kuru - the number of people that could contract it (ie. the number who ate brain) was significantly larger than the number of people who actually did contract it. The resistance came about via two separate "evolutionary upgrade"(s). | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | I cannot find any such claim in the literature. It appears to me that, like BSE (aka Mad Cow disease) it really depends on exposure. | | |
| ▲ | defrost 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | It was specifically endemic to the Fore, not so much to the Yate and Usurufa, and not particularly at all to other highland people in the general region. There's a twofer that skittled the Fore, a ~1900 mutation that created a new form of infectious prion proteins, and a local variation that saw less uptake in the Fore of a resistant prion protein (alongside other resistant prion protein). So, over the highlands region, there was general resistance thanks to several evolved variations, in one specific locale (the Fore) there was insufficient resistance to the mutation that hit a peak of 200 deaths / annum for about three years(?) in the late 50s. I can't speak to "the literature", I just had a lot of conversations with the people on the ground (Mike Alpers, etc), on again / off again, since the mid 1960s. |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | robocat 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Acshually a protective mutation was quickly being selected for (more precisely, the lack of it was strongly selected against). Paper about Kuru and mutations referenced in comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49719102 | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | The paper relies on the fact that people who were dying did not have the gene, but those that didn't ... did That's not really enough to say "We have found the gene" - it's just really good data to warrant further investigation Also, the incubation period of the disease is up to 50 odd years, have there been follow up studies? |
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| ▲ | josephg a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > millions of years of evolution are still not enough to build a perfect defence. Who said anything about a perfect defence? And since when was that the bar? | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | The context is very clear - but, sure you can play word games, why not. Just, you're doing it on your own. | | |
| ▲ | josephg 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | What seems obvious to you doesn't seem obvious to me. I'm not a malicious or incompetent enemy. But you will need to explain your perspective for me to understand it. |
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| ▲ | awesome_dude a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is the key truth that we keep forgetting | | |
| ▲ | josephg 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, or how this relates to computer security. | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | Funny - now you're talking about context... | | |
| ▲ | josephg 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | You seem mad about something I've said? I'd appreciate if you come out and say it instead of making vague insults, awesome_dude. |
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| ▲ | kulahan a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Then there's no such thing as security. By the way, there are countless ways to account for humans. There are entire branches of engineering devoted to this. If you don't want someone to leave the bank with a pen customers use for signing checks, you just chain it to the desk. If you don't want the installer to forget to put the pen-chain in, make a photo of the chain part of the checklist required to get paid. If you want to... etc. The idea is that you determine an acceptable level of risk, then secure to that level. Maybe the acceptable level of risk chosen by companies is wrong. Maybe we need to increase that risk exposure via heavier fines and regulations. Maybe the cost of reducing that risk is too high already. Maybe we need to fund that. Maybe it's too confusing and we need to research better standard practices. I dunno. But this is not some unsolvable problem. |
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| ▲ | 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Then there's no such thing as security. There really isn't Ask anyone seriously involved in security - whether computer science related, or in general. A thought experiment:
Think about the most important secrets a country can have - now think how they are still discovered by competing countries, enemies, etc. As long as there are humans in the loop there is a known weakness. | | |
| ▲ | kulahan 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This simply isn’t the case. There are plenty of secrets that every military keeps just fine. See how long we’ve gone without anyone ripping off the F-22? That’s not even a new airframe anymore. This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. The tech that makes the F-22 an unmitigated terror of the skies is of utmost importance, so it’s still kept secret. The barriers around that information are obnoxious, but effective. What blood type a subsection of your military has is of much less importance. That’s why that data was stolen (See: OPM hack) and our best weapons remain secret. | |
| ▲ | josephg 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'd love to see real stats on this. We know about many famous cases of leaks - like the USSR stealing notes from the manhatten project. But I bet there are thousands of secrets which remain secret. We just don't actually know about them, because, y'know, they're kept secret. |
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| ▲ | sabretooth1405 a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| In cryptography there are protocols that account for malicious actors |