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mesh a day ago

This is a cool project, but fyi, in the US, this would require a license to broadcast (not receive), and I am pretty sure encryption, even with a license, is not legal (again, when broadcasting from US).

And then only on certain bands:

https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Regulatory/Band%20Chart/Hamb...

rckoepke 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Just FYI, LoRa / LoRaWAN (Part 15) explicitly allow even unlicensed operators to utilize encryption. WiFi and Bluetooth, similarly, of course (also under Part 15). And surprisingly long range wireless network bridging like the Ubiquiti Building Bridge XG over 5GHz and 60GHz to bridge two building's LANs up to 500meters away. Part 15 also covers the unlicensed usage of the 900MHz band popular for citizen mesh networks at 2-15Mbps.

MURS (Part 95J) allows unlicensed operators to utilize encryption for digital data transmission as long as it's not encrypting voice communications, though it disallows store-and-forward packet operation and repeaters which makes doing anything similar to Reticulum/Meshtastic rather difficult.

For $400-800 nearly anyone can get a FCC Part 90 Nationwide Itinerant Data License which would allow them to do most of the "fun stuff" they might like to do for just $45-75/year, which is pretty darn affordable. Part 90 explicitly allows encryption, both of voice and data.

FCC Part 96 (CBRS) allows "unlicensed" (licensed-by-rule) operators to run their own private LTE/5G cell sites, if you have a WAN connection like Starlink or whatever. Obviously encryption is allowed.

Encryption is really only hard-banned for "amateur" radio (Part 97), and voice rules of Part 95 (i.e. CB / FRS / GMRS).

jcrawfordor 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would expect this system to ultimately be used under a commercial HF license rather than an amateur license, given the feature set and that it seems to have much more in common with military systems like ALE than amateur practice. That said, because of the scarce supply of HF bandwidth, commercial HF licenses are quite restrictive in the US. For the most part, you are only allowed to apply for one if you are an infrastructure operator that needs a contingency communications capability for disaster response. That said, the FCC has permitted experimental licenses for some commercial applications like high frequency trading, so perhaps the situation will become less restrictive over time.

That said, commercial licenses are not per-operator like amateur licenses, so you would potentially only need one to cover the entire network. Some of this is ultimately negotiated.

bityard 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Correct. Encryption (or more specifically, obscuring the meaning of a message) is generally not allowed for amateur radio stations except in very narrow circumstances. So any hams using this would have to turn the encryption off.

However, it looks like this stack has encryption available as an option for stations who are transmitting sensitive data and are NOT operating under an amateur license. (Probably government-sanctioned communications or emergency humanitarian efforts.)

edg5000 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For drones, at least in the EU, encryption is mandatory.

nowittyusername 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

what would happen if you were to break that law? like im talking enforcement here not whats on the books.. for example torrenting and uploding copyrighted files is illegal but most people dont give a shit as enforecement is almost non existant. i know radio is taken more seriously then torrenting but this must also be very low on priority for the government unless you are jamming people or somehow stand out enough for anyone to care or notice....

asdff 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Effectively nothing. I dug into this and found this article (1) from earlier this month on the FCC targeting a couple pirate radio stations in and around NYC. It says they used field agents and FM directional finding equipment to locate the signals to specific property. Probably a big show of force operation on their part.

However, the buck stops exactly there. It becomes the landlords issue, not the tenant who might be operating the radio, where the property owner is liable to be fined if they themselves don't shut the signal off after a certain amount of time. I would guess the FCC lacks the sensitivity to target the signal to a specific unit in a given building in order to issue the fine directly to the involved individual.

I guess the lesson is you can do whatever you like as long as you have the actual radio mast on someone else's property as they will get the fire if the FCC bothers to show up.

Makes me wonder about those old FM radio dongles we had for cars that lacked aux jacks or tape decks if those would technically be pirate radio. You'd have to set them to whatever open channel was locally available and they had actually pretty good range; I remember picking up my friends signal while I was driving behind them.

1. https://www.insideradio.com/free/pirate-radio-crackdown-puts...

mschuster91 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Makes me wonder about those old FM radio dongles we had for cars that lacked aux jacks or tape decks if those would technically be pirate radio.

No. These generally are type-rated and carry a general license to transmit, their power is extremely low and unlikely to be a nuisance to others for that reason.

wmchen 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're right that most amateur radio regulations are self-policed by other amateur radio operators, and true enforcement is probably rarer than folks like to imagine.

But depending on the environment (and noting that this project is specifically targeted towards communities seeking last-resort communication), there's definitely still risk, even if there isn't a spectrum authority with any real policing powers.

For example (and I say this speculatively), if you're broadcasting encrypted radio traffic in a conflict zone, it could be hard to differentiate between civilian traffic and military traffic happening on civilian bands, so you might be wrongly targeted by a drone strike.

If you already have a target on your back, radio laws can still be arbitrarily applied upon oneself, as in the case of Aung San Suu Kyi, who was once detained on the pretense of illegally importing handheld radios. [1]

[1]: https://apnews.com/article/aung-san-suu-kyi-myanmar-asia-ap-...

bmgxyz 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you're curious what's allowed on the ham bands, have a listen to 7.200 MHz LSB. (If you don't have a receiver, try one on the web[0], such as this one[1].) As of writing, someone is spamming the channel with racial slurs and KKK propaganda using a soundboard.

In my experience, enforcement of the rules is unheard of.

[0]: http://websdr.org/ [1]: http://websdr.k3fef.com:8901/

driverdan 12 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not unheard of but is unfortunately rare. The FCC sent a nastygram to one of the 7.200 nuts recently.

bityard 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the US, FCC investigations are complaint-driven. Meaning, if you interfere with someone else's frequency, and they complain about it hard enough, the FCC will take an interest in you. Especially if you interfere with public safety. (But they will still go after the more flagrant and persistent abusers on the ham bands.)

aeturnum 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In practice very little. The FCC tends to focus on long-lived stationary stations ("pirate" radio) with their few enforcement actions. That said it's important to remember that radio transmissions can easily be tracked to their source (doubly so with drones) and you should plan for that eventuality.

My sense is that at most you will be yelled at by HAMs - unless you are actually disrupting emergency communications. Ensuring radios can be used in emergencies is why licensing exists at all and people take ensuring it can be used for that pretty seriously (for good reason).

ErroneousBosh 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> what would happen if you were to break that law? like im talking enforcement here not whats on the books.

In the UK, nothing. There are far more important laws to enforce.

You will get some fat whiny old guy bitching about it to anyone who will listen, but you literally could not pay Ofcom to take an interest, and there are only about two people in the whole of the UK who have the skill to do anything about it.

BoxOfRain 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Don't Ofcom still raid the odd shortwave pirate occasionally if they're broadcasting in one of the GMDSS bands? Fairly sure it happened to a station a few years ago but I could be misremembering.

Then again, as you say, they probably have much better things to do. Would be nice to hear more stations popping up on MW too as all the legit stations leave the band.

ErroneousBosh 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, but then that's typical of the way laws are enforced in the UK.

If you're not actively pissing someone off, it is unlikely anyone will bother you.

No-one is going to give a shit about you running unattended digi modes on 80m except some guy who wants the exact same 3kHz out of 300kHz that you are using to moan about his sore feet to his pal across town.

GMDSS is considered Pretty Fucking Important, and messing with it will attract the attention of the Coastguard, who have the legal right to make even the Diplomatic Corps miserable.

Let me put it this way - when a defective navigation light ballast at a US-operated naval base on the Clyde was jamming 156.8MHz for about a ten mile radius, absolutely obliterating the distress and calling channel, Ofcom got involved, passed their findings onto the estuary radio control office, the RNLI, and the Coastguard, who had all been reporting an issue, and "gave advice" on further enforcement they could carry out. Within half an hour the nav light was shut down, after a phone call where the Coastguard explained that there were some very angry people on their way with a radio engineer who was about to put a Stihl saw through their fence and shut it off himself.

They were on that thing within the hour, replacing the lamp assembly and phoned estuary control before firing it back up, and peace returned to Channel 16.

zikduruqe 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> except in very narrow circumstances

Usually it is for the uplink control for satellites. That you'd like to keep encrypted, so that someone does not hack your bird.

wiml 17 hours ago | parent [-]

You really only need authentication for that, not encryption. MACs and such are okay on ham bands as I understand it. You just can't obscure the message. If you want a private channel to the exclusion of other people, license a frequency and pay for it. Spectrum is a scarce resource.

zikduruqe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You have to encrypt it.

NASA requires any of its propulsive spacecraft within 2 million kilometers of Earth to protect their command uplink with encryption that is compliant with Level 1 of the Federal Information Processing Standard (FIPS) 140-3 (10). The FCC has also considered requiring encryption on the telemetry, tracking, and command communications as well as mission data for propulsive spacecraft, but decided not to incorporate a specific requirement at this time. A satellite with an amateur license cannot encrypt transmissions in any way and must consist of open information. The eligibility rules are listed in 47 CFR Part 97.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.211

_whiteCaps_ 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Going to be super pedantic here - in ham radio you don't broadcast, you transmit.

mesh 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes! Broadcasting is prohibited!

(and this all reminded I need to renew my license which I haven't used in about 8 years! Looks like I also need a refresher!)

kanbankaren 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What is the difference between the two?

A ham operator might put out 20W of ERP while a radio station operates at 100W though international broadcasters use upto 500 kW.

drivers99 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Part 97 defines broadcasting as "Transmissions intended for reception by the general public, either direct or relayed."

Then there's a section that says:

> An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/part-97#p-97.113(b)

Since "broadcasting" is prohibited (except for the exceptions), there is a distinction. There actually are a number of exceptions that allow different kinds of one-way transmissions though.

subscribed 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> What is the difference

Except the CQ you only transmit for the specific recipient.

I believe broadcasting in one way only (there's no conversation part).

mesh 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In the US with an amateur radio license you can have one to one communication (transmit) but not one to many (broadcast).

lacunary 13 hours ago | parent [-]

hmm, been a minute since I got my ticket, but neither calling CQ nor working a net seem like one to one.

amatecha 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The difference is the intent - calling CQ is the protocol for seeking a contact to communicate with. It's not broadcasting because you're trying to establish comms with someone, and not disseminating information "one-to-many". Running a net inherently intends to engage in contact with numerous stations - by definition not "broadcasting".

scarecrowbob 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Isn't it the case that it's not a CQ unless someone responds?

Like, the response is kind of important for either a CQ or a net... whereas if I broadcast a pirate radio I am doing what I am trying to do just by sending.

lacunary 12 hours ago | parent [-]

yes I think two-way vs one-way communication is a good characterization

sitzkrieg 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

the intention is to make a contact, not disseminate one way information. that is broadcasting

19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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tarxvf 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://n5dux.com/ham/files/pdf/Data%20Encryption%20is%20Leg...

Razengan 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> encryption is not legal (again, when broadcasting from US)

What the fuck... How did you Freedom snorters let it get that way, god