| ▲ | 0xbadcafebee 4 hours ago |
| And this wouldn't have happened if we had tried to get them to buy our hardware rather than trying to gatekeep. Protectionism never works in the long term. |
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| ▲ | freakynit 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| US companies should now be more worried about Chinese companies flooding the market with their, hopefully, very affordable GPU's. The scale at which they can manufacture stuff is unmatched anywhere else. Nvidia can kiss goodbye to their 75%+ profit margins. Almost everyone knew that these sanctions would backfire within a few years. You can't really put sanctions that have noticeable negative effects on bigger economies. They only work for small to medium economies. I believe sanctions on any economy in top 10 would fail. |
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| ▲ | aurareturn 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | China is gated by not having EUV machine access. They're also bottlenecked by ASML's DUV machine production like everyone else. There are already talks of banning China from even purchasing DUV machines from ASML. So until China solves the ASML problem, there won't be any flooding. | | |
| ▲ | Catloafdev 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >until China solves the ASML problem Which they are in progress on: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/how-china-built-its-manh... | | |
| ▲ | aurareturn 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, but we don't know how well they work or what nm can they print or how machines they can make. | | |
| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny an hour ago | parent [-] | | They've overcome every hurdle to go from nothing to having working machines, so all these questions are presumably a matter of how fast they will improve and ramp up production (initially 5 this year, 20 next year), not whether they will. China have been really squeezing all they can out of DUV machines, but I'm not sure how much node size really matters for AI competition - more of a cost issue (more chips/power for same FLOPs) than anything, and TSMC & NVIDIA's healthy profit margins need to be considered too. | | |
| ▲ | aurareturn 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I'm well aware of how good China is at manufacturing. However, DUV/EUV machine manufacturing is unproven. What is the timeline like? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? | | |
| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | They already have working machines, and are slated to ship the first 5 early production ones right about now (before the end of 2026), and are projecting 20 for next year. Small numbers perhaps, but this is happening right now. What will the numbers be in 5-10 years time? Who knows, but ASML took about 5 years to go from 20/yr to 100+/yr. Of course politically the world may well be quite different in 5 years time, as may be the AI market. |
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| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > There are already talks of banning China from even purchasing DUV machines from ASML A bit late for that now that they are moving into early production with their own. |
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| ▲ | verdverm 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | pretty sure they'll be fine for a while, between the build out and import bans, I don't expect demand to slow enough to let supply catch up Nvidia are likely more concerned about AMD taking market share, and I suspect that geopolitics will leave US/China GPUs with largely non overlpping customer bases. | | |
| ▲ | overfeed 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > I suspect that geopolitics will leave US/China GPUs with largely non overlpping customer bases That's not what's happening in the auto-industry, Chinese EVs are easily outselling American ones. Why would GPUs be any different? |
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| ▲ | pjc50 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There seems to be a belief that the post-war 20th century order would be a fixed feature rather than a contingency of history. That the US would be #1, Europe #2, and the rest of the world would remain "developing" in rural poverty forever. That somehow China could be prevented from catching up. Now they are, and behind them India. I think people are going to be even more surprised in the latter half of the 21st century when South America and Africa start catching up as well. Brazil is one to watch if they manage to achieve political stability, as is Nigeria if it can transition from being a petrostate. |
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| ▲ | 0xbadcafebee 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | And the end started when China was admitted to the WTO. They had this huge cheap labor force, a government that could centrally plan (in addition to ignoring little things like environmentalism or rights), and an immense wealth of resources. It was like a bunch of sheep letting a baby wolf into the barn. Now the wolf's all grown up. |
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| ▲ | skybrian 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’m under the impression that industrial policy has been pretty good for some Asian companies but there have also been notorious failures like the Jones Act. So I think it can be summarized as “it all depends” and “skill issue.” |
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| ▲ | ipsod 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Look at how China does it. They'll happily sell us everything we want - more than enough of it, cheap enough, to put all of our own manufacturers out of business. Seems to work for them. |
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| ▲ | ffsm8 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Protectionism never works in the long term. You seem to misunderstand what Protectionism is.
This is not an example of it not working. If anything, it is any example of it working. Because Protectionism is about protecting your industry from foreign competition - exactly what China decided to do. |
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| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Same thing with Trump not helping Ukraine and berating NATO. He thought he held all the cards, but now Ukraine has a thriving battle-tested drone industry, UK and France have stepped in to replace the US with advanced missiles and anti-missile systems, stepping up their own production and transferring IP to Ukraine. Now, the US is left out in the cold with little influence left, themselves now the ones with an anti-missile shortage. |